D&D 3E/3.5 Edition Experience - Did/Do you Play 3rd Edtion D&D? How Was/Is it?

How Did/Do You Feel About 3E/3.5E D&D?

  • I'm playing it right now; I'll have to let you know later.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

I would say that restrictions of core stuff is not the default baseline.
I thought we were talking about how to make 3x good?

GrimCo pointed out a way to create a “broken“ character. And you have too.

But, if you care about making 3x good, the answer to that issue has been given:
  • if charop build is “broken” to you, don’t do it
  • if a player insists on charop-ing, and the DM doesn’t think it‘s fun, the DM should shut it down. No DM “owes” you a character that is “broken”. Rule Zero exists for a reason.

It seems like you’re saying “Wine sucks because if people drink 3 bottles of it, they throw up.” Yeah, OK, then don’t abuse it. If you/the folks you’re with can’t be trusted to control themselves with wine, the DM/bartender needs to cut them off. Or maybe drink your preferred tipple/play your preferred edition if this one is a problem for you.
 
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But, if you care about making 3x good, the answer to that issue has been given:
  • if charop build is “broken” to you, don’t do it
  • if a player insists on charop-ing, and the DM doesn’t think it‘s fun, the DM should shut it down. No DM “owes” you a character that is “broken”. Rule Zero exists for a reason.
Pretty much. I've tried all matter of methods but anything short of "knock it off" from the DM is not going to work for policing character makeups that are too strong for the campaign at hand.
 

GrimCo

Adventurer
I wouldn’t allow an evil cleric in the first place, but consequences for being a villain with a undead army would soon follow if this path were taken for long.
One mans villain is other mans hero. As pointed earlier, you don't have to be evil or worship evil deity to be necromancer cleric. Neutral cleric of neutral God will do just fine if you are strict on alignment stuff. But, I always liked to play with greyscale morality and relativistic view of good/evil. But it's just play style preference. Some people like it, some don't.
Isn’t the concept of Tiers from 4e?

Not really. As far as i know, they date to BECMI days. 3.x kind had it, but not really. 4e used 3 tiers. 4 tier is more from 5ed perspective but it kid of translates to 3.x. Tier 2 (lv 5-10) was even in 3.x days, sweet spot for most people. Your are powerful enough to be somebody, but you are not yet reality warping powerful. Game started to brake at tier 3 (11-16) and Tier4 was seldom if ever played. From personal experience, most people would go for "Zero to Hero" game, as in start at 1 and end about lv 8-10, with levels 5-8 being that juicy spot when fighter gets extra attack, wizard has his signature fireball and begins to shine. Above level 10, pure martials begin to fade from spotlight and full casters take the lead. And if you are playing with stingy DM as pure fighter at teen levels, you aren't going to be very effective since at that point, you are heavily dependent on magic gear to be usefull ( monsters at that levels get all sorts of immunities, damage reductions and fun things like that).

Best way to make it work is to know your players. If they are CharOpers, you count for that in encounter design or you just don't play with them if you don't like that play style. As a DM, you sit down with people, they tell you what they want, you tell them what you want, discuss how to make it work for mutual satisfaction. If you can't find common ground, too bad, but there are different games so you all pick up something else that meshes better with everyone.
 

Yora

Legend
Yeah, horde of skeletons would take a long time to take all their turns in a round.

But so would two dozen hired mercenaries. Which are about as strong and fairly cheap to keep around for a good while by 5th level.
 

Perfect answer.
Thanks.
Obviously all elucubrations on core spellcasters' "brokenness" are strongly conditional on the spellcasters having the spell slots to cast the desired spells, and actually being able to cast them. Easier said than done, however, because in my games, following the DMG guidelines/variants:

1- I ruthlessly enforce random encounters, per DMG guidelines, both in and out of the dungeons (the wilderness is a Very Dangerous Place, see DMG p.133). The players never know when they may need a Neutralise Poison, because you know, there are many poisonous critters around; perhaps giving priority to Divine Power isn't such a smart idea, after all...In general, random encounters ensure that the players DON'T determine the pacing of encounters and the option to rest. I can count on one hand (in 23 years) the times the players have had the luxury of going "nova", and that's just out of sheer luck. Also, it's fundamental to follow the encounters distribution table: (DMG p.102) 50% of the encounters will be at the party's EL, 30% at a lower EL, 15% up to EL+4 higher, and 5% EL5+; the players must know when to retreat, because...

2- All of the encounters are Status Quo. "Here there be dragons" is a warning!

3- I exclusively use the "organic character creation" option in the DMG, which ensures that PCs don't necessarily have the highest scores in the abilities they desire most (e.g. Constitution for Concentration, or Dexterity for AC, or Strength for melee.) I have had wimpy clerics and buff wizards at my table.

4- Intelligent adversaries will always target spellcasters as a matter of priority, and they will work in concert by flanking (so that 5' steps are useless) or, even better, surrounding; so that they can Ready actions to interrupt the spellcaster (whom are not guaranteed to have high enough Constitutions, by the assumed organic character creation). Enemy spellcasters will try to counterspell, obviously. So, the "useless" Fighters and Rogues are in a uniquely good position to actually intercept and engage adversaries to give spellcasters the necessary freedom to cast spells. The act of casting a spell must NEVER be taken for granted; the players should never consider that casting a spell is a simple option, and should think that using magic items is a better option for this reason, however...

5- Creating magic items should not be easy; the "power components" variant in the DMG guarantees that it's not a rote process, and that it's also VERY costly (I use the maximum x20 multiplier suggested in the DMG). Hacking the Wealth by Level table (by at least halving the values, per "low magic" considerations in the DMG) however reduces both the looted money and looted magic items (at 1/2 the value, you get "delays" in loot gains by at least 1, to about 3 levels). So, money will tend to be scarce (and needed for training, and for healing, and for resurrecting...), and the number of magic items found will be small. In short, recreate the "AD&D environment," which wasn't kind on spellcasters.

6- Make sure that ALL spells are appealing, not just the combat ones. Spellcasters should constantly face cost-opportunity choices, like memorising Neutralise Poison or Divine Power? Is Comprehend Languages going to be useful? Arcane Lock may be necessary to get some time to rest! What about Tenser's Floating Disk?

7- All sorcerers must have patrons (DMG variant p.42) so that gaining new spells is not automatic, and subject to bargains with entities which have their own agendas, and not all patrons are what they seem...Similarly, wizards must do spell research (DMG p.41), which has a time AND monetary cost; but money is not really plenty (due to WBL reduction). And finding scrolls and spellbooks is also not easy (again, WBL reduction.) Bards don't have it easy, either; scouring the countryside for new songs, rumours, etc. costs time AND money (DMG p.42)

All of the above is pretty much "by the book".
 

GrimCo

Adventurer
And that's your DM style. If you and your group satisfied with that, good for you guys. Personally, i would just tell you to pound sand and not play with those rules. I also have some rules for my horror games which i presented to group at session 0, they agreed on most, some where thrown out, some were modified to mutual satisfaction. Other group just said that they don't like it and we never played. Both are valid.

These days, i don't ban things. I talk to players and tell them why i would prefer they don't use certain options. I count on my players to be reasonable adults. Necromancers with bunch of animated undead for example. I tell players that they bog down games, turns take ages to finish, simple encounters could run for hour or two even on lower levels (which is big deal when you have fixed schedule and limited time for game). If they are really hell bent on necromancer archetype with undead minions, i try to talk with them if we could do it with maybe just one or 2 creatures, so they have their fun but don't bog down game much. If they really want that horde, well, i let them do it. They usually drop that after first grinding slog fest encounter. We had combat encounter with 25 active participants (5 party members + 10 skeletons vs 10 hobgoblins) that lasted whole session. Even necromancer player got bored after 2 hours. Next session, skeleton horde vanished.
 

Yora

Legend
Thanks.
Obviously all elucubrations on core spellcasters' "brokenness" are strongly conditional on the spellcasters having the spell slots to cast the desired spells, and actually being able to cast them. Easier said than done, however, because in my games, following the DMG guidelines/variants:

1- I ruthlessly enforce random encounters, per DMG guidelines, both in and out of the dungeons (the wilderness is a Very Dangerous Place, see DMG p.133). The players never know when they may need a Neutralise Poison, because you know, there are many poisonous critters around; perhaps giving priority to Divine Power isn't such a smart idea, after all...In general, random encounters ensure that the players DON'T determine the pacing of encounters and the option to rest. I can count on one hand (in 23 years) the times the players have had the luxury of going "nova", and that's just out of sheer luck. Also, it's fundamental to follow the encounters distribution table: (DMG p.102) 50% of the encounters will be at the party's EL, 30% at a lower EL, 15% up to EL+4 higher, and 5% EL5+; the players must know when to retreat, because...

2- All of the encounters are Status Quo. "Here there be dragons" is a warning!

3- I exclusively use the "organic character creation" option in the DMG, which ensures that PCs don't necessarily have the highest scores in the abilities they desire most (e.g. Constitution for Concentration, or Dexterity for AC, or Strength for melee.) I have had wimpy clerics and buff wizards at my table.

4- Intelligent adversaries will always target spellcasters as a matter of priority, and they will work in concert by flanking (so that 5' steps are useless) or, even better, surrounding; so that they can Ready actions to interrupt the spellcaster (whom are not guaranteed to have high enough Constitutions, by the assumed organic character creation). Enemy spellcasters will try to counterspell, obviously. So, the "useless" Fighters and Rogues are in a uniquely good position to actually intercept and engage adversaries to give spellcasters the necessary freedom to cast spells. The act of casting a spell must NEVER be taken for granted; the players should never consider that casting a spell is a simple option, and should think that using magic items is a better option for this reason, however...

5- Creating magic items should not be easy; the "power components" variant in the DMG guarantees that it's not a rote process, and that it's also VERY costly (I use the maximum x20 multiplier suggested in the DMG). Hacking the Wealth by Level table (by at least halving the values, per "low magic" considerations in the DMG) however reduces both the looted money and looted magic items (at 1/2 the value, you get "delays" in loot gains by at least 1, to about 3 levels). So, money will tend to be scarce (and needed for training, and for healing, and for resurrecting...), and the number of magic items found will be small. In short, recreate the "AD&D environment," which wasn't kind on spellcasters.

6- Make sure that ALL spells are appealing, not just the combat ones. Spellcasters should constantly face cost-opportunity choices, like memorising Neutralise Poison or Divine Power? Is Comprehend Languages going to be useful? Arcane Lock may be necessary to get some time to rest! What about Tenser's Floating Disk?

7- All sorcerers must have patrons (DMG variant p.42) so that gaining new spells is not automatic, and subject to bargains with entities which have their own agendas, and not all patrons are what they seem...Similarly, wizards must do spell research (DMG p.41), which has a time AND monetary cost; but money is not really plenty (due to WBL reduction). And finding scrolls and spellbooks is also not easy (again, WBL reduction.) Bards don't have it easy, either; scouring the countryside for new songs, rumours, etc. costs time AND money (DMG p.42)

All of the above is pretty much "by the book".
That's overall the hypothesis of my 3rd Edition Revisited thread. Might be of interest to you.
 

That's overall the hypothesis of my 3rd Edition Revisited thread. Might be of interest to you.
Yes I have seen that. It's not an hypothesis if there is at least one case where it's actually true :)
You also make the case of capping at 12th level; I tend to limit my campaigns around 15th level, but more out of boredom, and the fact that the play style tends to change dramatically after that.
This is a good read:
And also Ryan Dancey's comment (second from top):
 

GrimCo

Adventurer
To be fair, high levels can be fun, if you embrace the cheese and treat power creep as feature, not a bug.

Go all out, let players make their CodZillas, give them loot by the wagon load. Let them bend over Gods. Twist reality. Give them their power trip fantasy. Monty Haul game on steroids if you wish. And just watch how soon it becomes boring. Not for all, some people really love that and cudos for them, but in personal experience, most of people just stop having fun with it, game dies and you start over new campaign with normal characters.
 


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