D&D 3E/3.5 Edition Experience - Did/Do you Play 3rd Edtion D&D? How Was/Is it?

[Voadam]

Right. I guess something must be "lost in translation" as I am not a native English speaker. How would you call using rules variants from the DMG (which is one of the three core books)? I didn't add any house rules; everything I use is in the DMG. I am more than happy to learn an alternative definition to "by the book", as I am always eager to improve my knowledge of the language.
I also understand people not being familiar with any of those rules; probably only 10%-15% of the 3e DMs I have met in the last 23 years were even aware of the existences of those variant rules, and even more surprised to realise that those rules could solve some of the issues they had running the game.

I am not sure what I would specifically call it, probably a house ruled version using only official variants.

I used tons of house rules in my 3.5 games to tune my games to get different feels and effects, many of them were official things from stuff like Unearthed Arcana or other d20 games. For instance you can see the house rules from an online Freeport campaign I ran here. I think that using house rules and variant rules is completely appropriate to tune the game to your own style and preferences and desired feel for a specific campaign.

I would call the game I ran 3.5 D&D but I would not call it an example of a by the book 3.5 game even though D&D says for a DM to change and add or restrict stuff as you like. I specifically chose a lot of the house rules and variants to change my game from specific default baseline 3.5 stuff.

I particularly liked spontaneous divine casters, recharge magic, and fractional BAB and save advancements from UA once I got that. Spontaneous divine casting for example means for world design purposes not all clerics have daily access to the full cleric list of spells, which can impact a number of possible plot elements in a game (zone of truth, commune, speak with the dead, etc.)

From even later I particularly like aspects of the 3.5 OGL Trailblazer such as the phantom attack bonuses for monks and rogues to make them more competitively competent melee combatants.

 

[Schmoe]

Ars poetica my friend.

Anecdotally, our 3 member lv 13 party wiped the floor with balor in 2 rounds. And those where not super optimized characters, just decently efective (my necropolitan cleric, elf wizard and half dragon warblade). At levels 15+, there are very few creatures that pose serious threat. Clerics get lv 7, wizards lv 8 spells. They are known through the world as powerful entities not to be messed with lightly. At that point, it's hard to keep game grounded when PCs can bend and break reality. It can be done, for sure. But most people agree that sweet spot for 3.x is lv 5-8. You are not to fragile, you can punch above your wight if you are prepared, but there is enough things in the world that are more powerful and scary, and martial/caster parity is still there.

That's impressive! I'd be interested in hearing how the lvl 13 trio pulled that off.

 

[Maxperson]

Ars poetica my friend.

Anecdotally, our 3 member lv 13 party wiped the floor with balor in 2 rounds. And those where not super optimized characters, just decently efective (my necropolitan cleric, elf wizard and half dragon warblade). At levels 15+, there are very few creatures that pose serious threat. Clerics get lv 7, wizards lv 8 spells. They are known through the world as powerful entities not to be messed with lightly. At that point, it's hard to keep game grounded when PCs can bend and break reality. It can be done, for sure. But most people agree that sweet spot for 3.x is lv 5-8. You are not to fragile, you can punch above your wight if you are prepared, but there is enough things in the world that are more powerful and scary, and martial/caster parity is still there.

Without knowing the specifics, I find it hard to believe that 3 13th level PCs who were only "decently effective" and not Monty Haul would be able to wipe the floor with a Balor in 2 rounds.

 

[Alzrius]

Without knowing the specifics, I find it hard to believe that 3 13th level PCs who were only "decently effective" and not Monty Haul would be able to wipe the floor with a Balor in 2 rounds.

I don't. This actually dovetails with what Bad Axe Games's Trailblazer: Teratologue (affiliate link) has as the "spine CR" of a balor, which is slightly less than 11. That is to say, if you run a balor as a melee-type combatant, ignoring its spell-like abilities and other esoteric powers in favor of just having it hit as many times per round as it can, then it's roughly a challenge for an 11th-level party.

The idea here is that a monster's CR is the sum of all of their statistics, with different parts of their stat block being worth different values (skills, for instance, are worth almost nothing). Creatures that have large lists of spells and/or SLAs need to be run as if they were casters in order to get the most out of their build.

 

[Voadam]

A 3.0 Balor has 110 hp and their DR can be ignored with a +3 weapon compared with a 3.5 balor's 290 hp and requiring both cold iron and good aspects to get through the DR.

 

[GrimCo]

Harm is nasty spell. 10 dmg/caster level, half on save. One round he saved, one he failed (dm rolled 1). 180/280 hp gone from 2 spells. And then, Half Dragon (red) is nasty template, combine it with Warblade (don't remember what stances or manouvers he had). I think he had like STR 28 or 30 even (+8 from template+ belt of giant strenght +4). Items were done by wealth per level for lv 10 characters. Wizard did wizard stuff, some cold spell for bunch of damage. Our front liner could effective grapple that balor. And to be fair, dm did use his turn to cast blasphemy. Too bad all of us were either LE or NE. Also, we attacked him in the middle of negotiation.

 

[Voadam]

Harm is nasty spell. 10 dmg/caster level, half on save. One round he saved, one he failed (dm rolled 1). 180/280 hp gone from 2 spells. And then, Half Dragon (red) is nasty template, combine it with Warblade (don't remember what stances or manouvers he had). I think he had like STR 28 or 30 even (+8 from template+ belt of giant strenght +4). Items were done by wealth per level for lv 10 characters. Wizard did wizard stuff, some cold spell for bunch of damage. Our front liner could effective grapple that balor. And to be fair, dm did use his turn to cast blasphemy. Too bad all of us were either LE or NE. Also, we attacked him in the middle of negotiation.

Since it is a Warblade I am guessing it was all 3.5 so the 290 hp balor.

You said level 13, so two harms, one saving for half, so would do 130+65 = 195 hp damage total but both would have had to have pierced the 28 spell resistance, which at level 13 would normally be +13 caster level so only get through about one out of four times. With greater spell penetration that caster level check improves to +17 for a 50/50 chance to penetrate.

Cold damage wizard spell could have been an empowered cone of cold at 13th level which would be 19d6 of cold damage (save for half), but still have to get through the SR.

Blasphemy is normally a ridiculously effective no save paralysis for 1d10 minutes in a forty foot radius area of effect for PCs level 15 and below. It only affects non-evil targets however.

 

[GrimCo]

Yeah, my bad, it's been over 15 years, had to find binder with my old characters. Prayer bead- karma gives you +4 on caster level. So 13+4+4 , thats +21 vs DC 28. I can't remember what exactly wizard had, but it had also nice bonus vs SR ( it could be Red Wizard PrC but without human prerequisite). Basically, we started at that level, so we made our characters in mind that things we are going to face are gonna have some decent SR. Sadly, it ran for only couple of sessions. I think that our DM didn't really think things trough, since we would normally end campaigns around lv 10 at most.

Yes, those characters were powerful, but i always sucked at charop. I can make competent character, sure. But crunching numbers over which feat is better or which item stacks with other is PIA that isn't really fun.

Blasphemy/ Holy word/ DIctum are super nice spells.

 

[Schmoe]

Harm is nasty spell. 10 dmg/caster level, half on save. One round he saved, one he failed (dm rolled 1). 180/280 hp gone from 2 spells. And then, Half Dragon (red) is nasty template, combine it with Warblade (don't remember what stances or manouvers he had). I think he had like STR 28 or 30 even (+8 from template+ belt of giant strenght +4). Items were done by wealth per level for lv 10 characters. Wizard did wizard stuff, some cold spell for bunch of damage. Our front liner could effective grapple that balor. And to be fair, dm did use his turn to cast blasphemy. Too bad all of us were either LE or NE. Also, we attacked him in the middle of negotiation.

Nice, that's a pretty good story to remember! I don't think it's totally representative of things, though, considering you essentially got surprise, got a bit lucky, and the Balor was dumb. Still, sounds like a good memory

 

[haakon1]

1- I ruthlessly enforce random encounters, per DMG guidelines, both in and out of the dungeons (the wilderness is a Very Dangerous Place, see DMG p.133).

Comparing what you do to what I do, for fun.

1) I don’t do, but players generally don’t get to Nova for 1 encounter and then sleep. There’s often a time constraint or active NPC/monster actions that make that not possible.

Right now, my players in my email TOEE campaign know there’s an ultimatum from the Viscount of Verbobonc for Hommlet‘s Rufus & Burne to surrender the Tower of Hommlet (and themselves and the PC's as prisoners) the day after tomorrow, so they need to finish their mission (3 of 4 gems acquired, in the last node) before they sleep, to get back and deal with that.

They didn’t recognize the hints that a mercenary army of Hobgoblins with Elephants is on its way, and will arrive a day early. Luckily, Rufus, Burne, and Spugnoir (NPC who was briefly with the party and was sent back to the Tower by the party to escort rescued civilians) figured it out and most of the village is fleeing to the Moathouse before the army arrives. (It helps to have players from other campaigns plot as the NPC factions!)

2- All of the encounters are Status Quo. "Here there be dragons" is a warning!

2) 100% my approach. The world is not is scaled to the PC’s levels, but there are hints or big warnings in some cases. I think this is traditional AD&D/Greyhawk style play.

Village guards will almost always be Warrior 1, and most wolves are wolves, but dragons are dragons.

3- I exclusively use the "organic character creation" option in the DMG, which ensures that PCs don't necessarily have the highest scores in the abilities they desire most (e.g. Constitution for Concentration, or Dexterity for AC, or Strength for melee.) I have had wimpy clerics and buff wizards at my

3) I do 4d6, drop lowest, any order. One set of rolls, unless any stat is 6 or lower, in which case you may choose to reroll them all (not just the low one).

4- Intelligent adversaries will always target spellcasters as a matter of priority, and they will work in concert by flanking (so that 5' steps are useless) or, even better, surrounding; so that they can Ready actions to interrupt the spellcaster (whom are not guaranteed to have high enough Constitutions, by the assumed organic character creation). Enemy spellcasters will try to counterspell, obviously. So, the "useless" Fighters and Rogues are in a uniquely good position to actually intercept and engage adversaries to give spellcasters the necessary freedom to cast spells. The act of casting a spell must NEVER be taken for granted; the players should never consider that casting a spell is a simple option, and should think that using magic items is a better option for this reason, however...

4) I don't usually fight this way, and neither do my players. Non-casters often do more damage. The enemy (and players) tend to focus either on what's doing the most damage, or what's easy pickings.

5- Creating magic items should not be easy; the "power components" variant in the DMG guarantees that it's not a rote process, and that it's also VERY costly (I use the maximum x20 multiplier suggested in the DMG). Hacking the Wealth by Level table (by at least halving the values, per "low magic" considerations in the DMG) however reduces both the looted money and looted magic items (at 1/2 the value, you get "delays" in loot gains by at least 1, to about 3 levels). So, money will tend to be scarce (and needed for training, and for healing, and for resurrecting...), and the number of magic items found will be small. In short, recreate the "AD&D environment," which wasn't kind on spellcasters.

5) I use standard rules for magic item creation. My players never have enough money. With two domains to run that need investments in building buildings, recruiting, and gearing the recruits, and another PC building a monastery, money goes fast. Time is the other big investment for magic item creation.

Wealth by Level is a totally foreign concept to me. They get what they find and spend what they feel is necessary.

New PC's don't get Wealth by Level and their choice of stuff either. 5 PC's I've added above 1st level since 2021, they get whatever mundane gear makes sense, and basically 1-2 items special items of their choosing, or I'll give them something if they don't. It's an Earn-As-You-Go campaign. This is probably the one place I'm "tougher" than you.

6- Make sure that ALL spells are appealing, not just the combat ones. Spellcasters should constantly face cost-opportunity choices, like memorising Neutralise Poison or Divine Power? Is Comprehend Languages going to be useful? Arcane Lock may be necessary to get some time to rest! What about Tenser's Floating Disk?

6) Hmm, not sure what you mean, but yes, spells like Leomund's Secure Shelter, Sending, and Create Food & Water were considered game changers for my PC's.

Partially, that's because they have people to talk to elsewhere (thus Sending is critical) in complex plots like working with Rufus and Burne. Partially it's because attacks while resting happen, and I've done stuff like their first trip out of Keep on the Borderlands, some PC's nearly froze to death in the mountains because they didn't have enough tents, winter blankets, and cold weather clothing. That got across the "logistics matter" message clearly.

7- All sorcerers must have patrons (DMG variant p.42) so that gaining new spells is not automatic, and subject to bargains with entities which have their own agendas, and not all patrons are what they seem...Similarly, wizards must do spell research (DMG p.41), which has a time AND monetary cost; but money is not really plenty (due to WBL reduction). And finding scrolls and spellbooks is also not easy (again, WBL reduction.) Bards don't have it easy, either; scouring the countryside for new songs, rumours, etc. costs time AND money (DMG p.42)

7) I haven't done that.