D&D 4E Edition Experience - Did/Do You Play 4th Edition D&D? How Was/Is it?

[FrogReaver]

Oh I don't deny lots of people said it. Lots of people say a lot of things. But in a simple factual sense, it was not a valid claim. There was virtually no "MMORPG influence" in 4E. I asked people at the time to point out what they thought was WoW-influence or MMORPG-influence, because I was an active WoW player at the time, and someone who played MMOs since 1999 with EQ, I couldn't work out what the heck they meant.

Of course it was valid claim.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

@Ruinexplorer
Strange, I clearly remember being searched and asked for being a tank in the various dungeons on release. (I was a warrior). The role was there. It was not called tank but searching for a protect warrior was a real thing. Maybe my memory is fuzzy. It seems to me that I always been a tank in WoW (Especially in Burning Crusade). But it must be because the roles were slowly taking their sweet spot in the different dungeons. Yes the leveling was asymmetrical but it was easy to compare the roles in WoW and in the 4th edition a few years later. But I do agree with you that Cataclysm formalized the whole thing. It was informal before that but it was there nonetheless.

And as I said earlier, I do not think that this was a bad thing. It was much easier to explain the different roles of the characters to new players. 4ed was really easy to understand because of this and young players had something to relate to. They knew WoW so it was easy for them to find their "niche" class and preference.

You're misremembering slightly.

"Tank", in MMOs of that era was a verb and a noun. In pre-TBC WoW, it was not a "role", it just something you did, and class could do it - and Warlocks and Rogues and other classes often ended up doing it. "Tanking" was the act of standing in front of the party and trying to hold aggro on the mobs. In non-WoW MMOs, often multiple classes could do this, and had tools to do this. In DAoC, for example, it was role, and a bunch of classes had it, and a bunch of other classes were hybrids that could do it, or could do other things.

In WoW pre-TBC only one class was actually a Tank by design - the Warrior.

That was it. That was the end of the story. You didn't be a "Protection Warrior" to Tank in WoW. All Warriors, regardless of how they spec'd, had the tools to Tank and go a good job of it. In fact, in that era, Warriors didn't spec Protection to tank unless they were the Main Tank in a Raid (which only one player in 40 could be, even theoretically). It was actually counterproductive in dungeons - Fury, hilariously, made the best tank there. That remained true even in TBC (because killing mobs faster and holding aggro better > taking slightly less damage).

What was notable about WoW, and not like other MMOs, was that the other classes didn't have the tools they needed to Tank (Druid was closest, with Bear form). In other MMOs, you usually had several classes which could tank decently to excellently. In WoW, just Warriors. Again, this was something people were mad about.

This changed, on paper at least, in TBC. They added tools to Paladins, they improved the tools Druids had. In theory you could now tank okay as those classes. In practice it was more debatable, until very late in TBC, when well-geared Paladins became the best tanks for dungeons. It was still informal, though. The first formalization of it was in WotLK, when the LFG tool asked you to identify your role (that wasn't on launch of WotLK, though, so 2009 some time?). Cataclysm then formalized it more, by actually creating separate "specs" with exclusive abilities.

 

[Helldritch]

It sounds about right. I was doing a lot of 40 men at the time and I was the main tank so... I have not played wow since the end of cataclysm but I did use the terms to explain the roles of the different characters. So for me, it was a really good tool to teach D&D. Old age must be playing with my memory...

 

[FrogReaver]

Let's see - 4e similarities to MMO's

Different class powers even for non-magical PC's
Powers tied to cooldowns/recharge timeframes
High degree of very samey balance
Dedicated Combat Roles
Introduced minions
Perhaps the thing that was most similar - Powers caused the game to feel more like, "these are the only things I can do" whereas RPG's typically leave non-magical actions wide open to freeform.

 

[FrogReaver]

You're misremembering slightly.

"Tank", in MMOs of that era was a verb and a noun. In pre-TBC WoW, it was not a "role", it just something you did, and class could do it - and Warlocks and Rogues and other classes often ended up doing it. "Tanking" was the act of standing in front of the party and trying to hold aggro on the mobs. In non-WoW MMOs, often multiple classes could do this, and had tools to do this. In DAoC, for example, it was role, and a bunch of classes had it, and a bunch of other classes were hybrids that could do it, or could do other things.

In WoW pre-TBC only one class was actually a Tank by design - the Warrior.

That was it. That was the end of the story. You didn't be a "Protection Warrior" to Tank in WoW. All Warriors, regardless of how they spec'd, had the tools to Tank and go a good job of it. In fact, in that era, Warriors didn't spec Protection to tank unless they were the Main Tank in a Raid (which only one player in 40 could be, even theoretically). It was actually counterproductive in dungeons - Fury, hilariously, made the best tank there. That remained true even in TBC (because killing mobs faster and holding aggro better > taking slightly less damage).

What was notable about WoW, and not like other MMOs, was that the other classes didn't have the tools they needed to Tank (Druid was closest, with Bear form). In other MMOs, you usually had several classes which could tank decently to excellently. In WoW, just Warriors. Again, this was something people were mad about.

This changed, on paper at least, in TBC. They added tools to Paladins, they improved the tools Druids had. In theory you could now tank okay as those classes. In practice it was more debatable, until very late in TBC, when well-geared Paladins became the best tanks for dungeons. It was still informal, though. The first formalization of it was in WotLK, when the LFG tool asked you to identify your role (that wasn't on launch of WotLK, though, so 2009 some time?). Cataclysm then formalized it more, by actually creating separate "specs" with exclusive abilities.

Can't say I was ever into Wow but as early as 2005 the Trinity of Tank, DPS and Healer was solidified in WOW.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Let's see - 4e similarities to MMO's

Different class powers even for non-magical PC's
Powers tied to cooldowns/recharge timeframes
High degree of very samey balance
Dedicated Combat Roles
Introduced minions
Perhaps the thing that was most similar - Powers caused the game to feel more like, "these are the only things I can do" whereas RPG's typically leave non-magical actions wide open to freeform.

This isn't a list of "similarities to MMOs", this is a list of "similarities to other tabletop RPGs and video games in general".

You're proving my point for me.

Minions weren't a thing in any MMO of the era, either. Whereas they were a thing in TT RPGs since Feng Shui in 1996. That's a "self-own" as they say.

Can't say I was ever into Wow but as early as 2005 the Trinity of Tank, DPS and Healer was solidified in WOW.

Can you please stop owning yourself? This is just ignorance. In WoW in 2005, there was no "tank, DPS and healer" holy trinity. The holy trinity in 2005 was Warrior, Priest and "DPS" (which was literally any other class int he game). Specific classes, not roles. People, as I've said, were actually annoyed that there wasn't a generalized trinity. But there wasn't.

This was something which was different in WoW to other MMOs. Other MMOs, you could argue that there was a "holy trinity of tank, DPS, and healer", because there were multiple classes which could do those roles. Not so WoW.

This is like dealing with someone who read, third-hand, about 1st edition, and has "OPINIONS!!!!" about 1st edition, but never played 1E, or even actually read any of the rulebooks, and is just going on "stuff I read on the internets".

 

[FrogReaver]

This isn't a list of "similarities to MMOs", this is a list of "similarities to other tabletop RPGs and video games in general".

You're proving my point for me.

Minions weren't a thing in any MMO of the era, either. Whereas they were a thing in TT RPGs since Feng Shui in 1996. That's a "self-own" as they say.

Minions were a thing in wow. AKA mobs in boss fights.

Yes TTRPG's and action RPG's and MMOrpg's all share a lot of elements. Which only helps prove my point - that WOW heavily influenced many aspects of 4e. As it should have - the most successful MMOrpg of all time should be influencing other RPG products.

 

[FrogReaver]

This isn't a list of "similarities to MMOs", this is a list of "similarities to other tabletop RPGs and video games in general".

You're proving my point for me.

Minions weren't a thing in any MMO of the era, either. Whereas they were a thing in TT RPGs since Feng Shui in 1996. That's a "self-own" as they say.



Can you please stop owning yourself? This is just ignorance. In WoW in 2005, there was no "tank, DPS and healer" holy trinity. The holy trinity in 2005 was Warrior, Priest and "DPS" (which was literally any other class int he game). Specific classes, not roles. People, as I've said, were actually annoyed that there wasn't a generalized trinity. But there wasn't.

This was something which was different in WoW to other MMOs. Other MMOs, you could argue that there was a "holy trinity of tank, DPS, and healer", because there were multiple classes which could do those roles. Not so WoW.

This is like dealing with someone who read, third-hand, about 1st edition, and has "OPINIONS!!!!" about 1st edition, but never played 1E, or even actually read any of the rulebooks, and is just going on "stuff I read on the internets".

That the Trinity of tank, dps and healer wasn't yet as generalized as it is today - doesn't take away from the point that the concept of tank, dps and healer was a concept inherit to WOW gameplay at that time - as you just admitted.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Minions were a thing in wow. AKA mobs in boss fights.

Christ. You've never played WoW, have you? Certainly not in 2004-2007.

There were no "minions" in WoW. The adds in boss fights in 2004-2007 WoW were FULL MOBS. They were the D&D equivalent of a CR4 mob getting CR1 mobs to come in and help it. If you disagree, it's easy to prove - go play WoW on the Classic servers.

There were not weaklings which could be one-shot like Minions, and this was the major challenge with them. MMOs did later add exactly that kind of thing - the one-shot-able, paper-like add to a boss fight. But not until long after 2007.

As I said, minions come from Feng Shui in 1996. They were well-established in TT RPGs by 2007.

Yes TTRPG's and action RPG's and MMOrpg's all share a lot of elements. Which only helps prove my point - that WOW heavily influenced many aspects of 4e. As it should have - the most successful MMOrpg of all time should be influencing other RPG products.

And yet all your examples were in other TT RPGs, or other video games, years, even decades before WoW or 4E.

That the Trinity of tank, dps and healer wasn't yet as generalized as it is today - doesn't take away from the point that the concept of tank, dps and healer was a concept inherit to WOW gameplay at that time - as you just admitted.

I'm not sure what you think you're proving here. It was a concept inherent to the gameplay of a lot of games for a long time before WoW. WoW was an unusually bad example.

 

[FrogReaver]

Christ. You've never played WoW, have you? Certainly not in 2004-2007.

There were no "minions" in WoW. The adds in boss fights in 2004-2007 WoW were FULL MOBS. They were the D&D equivalent of a CR4 mob getting CR1 mobs to come in and help it.

There were not weaklings which could be one-shot like Minions, and this was the major challenge with them. MMOs did later add exactly that kind of thing - the one-shot-able, paper-like add to a boss fight. But not until long after 2007.

As I said, minions come from Feng Shui in 1996. They were well-established in TT RPGs by 2007.

You are arguing that one specific concept of minion was not present. I am arguing that in general there were minions present - and you just admitted their were. See the issue?

And yet all your examples were in other TT RPGs, or other video games, years, even decades before WoW or 4E.

Doesn't matter - what matters is where the influence immediately came from. For 4e the big thing influencing other RPG's at the time was WOW and all of those things I listed can be traced to WOW. Now you can believe that WOW had no influence and that somehow these decades old games are what directly influenced 4e - but that seems like a rather flimsy position.

Maybe we should start here though - name one thing unique about WOW that wasn't in other RPG's or MMO's of the time.