D&D 4E Edition Experience - Did/Do You Play 4th Edition D&D? How Was/Is it?

How Did/Do You Feel About 4th Edition D&D

  • I'm playing it right now; I'll have to let you know later.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm playing it right now and so far, I don't like it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Status
Not open for further replies.

Randomthoughts

Adventurer
Wait, is this not how you were supposed to run 4E? I ran 4E that way, and I kinda assumed everyone did.

Now I admit clearly not everyone at WotC did, because stuff like Keep on the Shadowfell (another crime against adventure-writing - though in this case merely a rough mugging in an alley, not the serial-killer-spree that Faction War was) was just absolute drivel with loads of pointless, boring fights in it, but that and most of the WotC 4E adventures I saw were badly designed on multiple levels (not just the mechanical!), so I sort of assumed that was why.
I'm assuming you (like permeton) meant this in jest :) If I had learned anything of value from the edition wars, it would be how different people actually played D&D.

Unfortunately, it seemed like the designers didn't really understand the strengths and weaknesses of the 4e rule set (though it did improve over time). You know who did? The fans! It's stuff like (sorry if I get this wrong) the monster math on a business card, multi-tiered boss/solo fights (by AngryGM IIRC) and the awesome campaign write ups - all the way through level 30 no less. Pure gold!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

He was a powerplayer in the time period

He wasn't. He was a talking head. An easy person to get a comment out of, because he no longer worked for WotC and so couldn't get in trouble with them, and he always loved to talk.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People acted like Dancey was a big deal. He was for a while. He ceased being a big deal in D&D-related stuff in 2002. He talked a good game, but he wasn't involved in this stuff. He was working full-time at CCP, at quite a high level.

Exactly, you're spouting your opinion as fact and now acknowledging "as far as you can tell". You also openly expressed your bias against Dancey. SO where does that leave the discussion? tea. Lots of TEA.

Don't be juvenile about this, it's not helpful. I grew up. I was biased against him because I was a dumb kid. 20 years ago! He's a perfectly nice person. I'm not "biased against him" now, in my bloody 40s. Who holds a grudge that long? What am I a Warhammer dwarf? I'm just realistic about how much sway a guy working for a different company 2600 miles away actually has.

As far as I can tell means I'm waiting for you to suggest how the "MMO influence" manifested in 4E's rules. A subject you have been completely silent on. I'm sipping my tea and waiting politely for you to explain - do illuminate us, dear Mr Teitan! Any examples are welcome!
 

If I'm being generous I would say it's "funny" that for all the talk about how 4e had no association with WOW or similar games and anyone who says otherwise is must be an idiot or a horrible person, that almost all the comparisons I heard at the time were from people who liked WOW and 4e.

Heck, the Podcast I listen to that still plays 4e you can go back and hear episodes from back then and the WOW player is like "This is just like WOW!" and the GM uses comparisons to help players understand concepts (an encounter power is like your "cool-down"). I guess they are all just idiots.
Personally, I think there is a comparison in the sense that WoW is unabashedly a game first, and an RPG second. 4e is also unabashedly a game, and it handles the fiction and the things which happen within the game in a way that makes a good game. The game side of other D&D editions has always been much weaker and treated almost as a secondary thing (though I think 5e is certainly closer to 4e in this respect than previous editions, it still insists on a lot stuff that doesn't really work well at all from a game perspective).
This made 4e inherently very playable and pretty easy to learn. This is particularly why it is widely considered to be the best edition to DM, because the structure of the game, the way things work in 4e, even its lore, is intended to make DMing easier and more fun.
So, you can compare WoW and 4e and say that they both approach RP from a 'gamist' perspective. Still, it is VERY true that they are nothing alike in their details. I think 4e designers looked at WoW and other online games and then went back and had that information in their minds when they came up with goals and processes for the design of 4e, but they didn't carry over any of the particulars. As others have said, 4e's roles are NOTHING like their WoW equivalents, but 4e clarifies how classes and parties work by leveraging the role concept into an explicit framework.
This is, frankly, the main reason to like 4e. Whenever it does something, the design is intentionally organized around "what will play well?". Think about teleportation. In previous editions this ability is practically game-breaking at higher levels. It creates a very difficult situation for the GM in terms of presenting some fictional limitations and obstacles for the PCs. OTOH 4e teleportation has none of this issue. You can teleport, by engaging in a fairly lengthy ritual, which will only take you to a known point, a teleportation circle. Yeah, the GM could place one of those in the bad guy's lair, in which case it is just another dungeon entrance. He can place one in the PCs base (or they can build it themselves) so they can 'bail out' if they have time to cast the ritual. It doesn't allow for almost-arbitrary travel and surgical strikes that bypass every obstacle and undermine the paradigm of the game. There is also 'tactiportation', which is just flavor for a nice move option (can cross most kinds of terrain and avoids OAs). These aren't even particularly narratively inept mechanics, there's plenty of high fantasy where things are equally limited and its not like teleporting is even possible in most fantasy fiction at all.
But far beyond that, the very processes of the game are friendly to telling a story. Skill Challenges allow measured progress that lets the players know objectively what the value of a given tactic is, whereas in a game like 5e who knows? You make a skill check in 5e, how much progress did that represent towards your goal? As much as the DM felt like it being. So how can you know if it was worth the cost? You cannot. In 4e I'm in a Complexity 1 SC, that success is 25% of me achieving my goal.
 

teitan

Legend
He wasn't. He was a talking head. An easy person to get a comment out of, because he no longer worked for WotC and so couldn't get in trouble with them, and he always loved to talk.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People acted like Dancey was a big deal. He was for a while. He ceased being a big deal in D&D-related stuff in 2002. He talked a good game, but he wasn't involved in this stuff. He was working full-time at CCP, at quite a high level.



Don't be juvenile about this, it's not helpful. I grew up. I was biased against him because I was a dumb kid. 20 years ago! He's a perfectly nice person. I'm not "biased against him" now, in my bloody 40s. Who holds a grudge that long? What am I a Warhammer dwarf? I'm just realistic about how much sway a guy working for a different company 2600 miles away actually has.

As far as I can tell means I'm waiting for you to suggest how the "MMO influence" manifested in 4E's rules. A subject you have been completely silent on. I'm sipping my tea and waiting politely for you to explain - do illuminate us, dear Mr Teitan! Any examples are welcome!
Well when others have expressed their opinion on the influence and how they think it manifests then I feel the case is already rested. Good day sir.
 

Oofta

Legend
I was excited about 4E when it came out. Bought all the books the moment they came out, ran or helped run game days, ran a game up to level 30, played in a campaign to level. I created some fun PCs. There were bright moments. But ... I burned out on it.

It had some good ideas but between all PCs hitting the same beats and having the same decision points* along with individual turns of play that took an hour or more it's the first version of the game I wouldn't want to ever play again even as a short term campaign.

I think the game was simply pushed out before it was ready. In addition, I'm sorry to say it didn't feel like the free-form role playing game that I had grown up playing and enjoyed for decades. It was just too constrained, too combat focused, too often pushed mechanical game solutions to every obstacle. I always felt like I was shoehorning in anything that couldn't be resolved by a power or a skill challenge.

*at least until later in it's release, but I never saw anyone play those classes.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It was a great edition but it had flaws. But I taught a 6 year old to DM with it. It's the D&D for DMs.

4e really needed a bit more outside playtesting and internal love for the amount of departure it makes.

I could play it again but only to level7 or so. It really needed the math tuning it got later in life as well as more variants.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I never met an edition of D&D I didn't like. 4e is not the exception. I had some good campaigns with 4e. However, I never fell in love with it like my first edition, or my most played edition, or the revitalized all-new edition after TSR failed.

When 4e came out, it seemed like mechanically it had a very heavy combat focus in terms of character creation. Now I just see that as every edition had a similar balance in the amount of character creation aimed at combat, but the AEDU system laid it all bare so it was more obvious.

In play, the sweet spot mechanically for me was high adventurer tier to high paragon tier. Below that was too repetitive and without enough customization options*. Above that was too many individual close-but-different powers to evaluate each turn. Unfortunately, other players had different mechanical complexity,. and I had one game implode mid-paragon because your average combat was taking a session and a half.

People who needed to reread every power every turn, couldn't plan ahead because the powers succeeded in their goal of making combat more dynamic, and that long turn meant others wold lose focus and need recaps or "which monsters are bloodied" recaps when their turns came up, and it was over an hour between your actions. And then if you missed you have two hours of a session where you contributed nothing.

That wasn't every campaign, but some players just did not ever get to know their powers well enough once they had a few.

My 3.5 campaign lasted long into the 4e era - it ran 7 years, and I never got the urge to run a campaign in 4e in the time it had left. 3.0 which I loved had turned to hate of 3.5 with every-dang-book, and 4e continued that business models. But it adding in the subscription, and after a while I realized that was the right move for me. So I had everything, with all of the errata (!!) automatically in. But now that 5e is here, I have precious little of the books and would be hard pressed to return to it in the same way people around me play (with everything that's official).

4e made alot of changes, which alienated a bunch of players. I think the saddest of them were the rules that were really solid RPG rules - but strayed too far drom D&D so many didn't get their due.

If you look at it as an extended experiment, there's a lot of good lessons to take from it, and there's concepts (like the warlord) that have captured people's attention in a permanent way.
 

ZeshinX

Adventurer
I bought the core rules and the Realms Campaign guide when they released, since I had (somehow) managed to avoid most of the talk and specifics about 4e prior to release...and dear lord was I not impressed with it. Still, I had to give a go at least once, and I did.

For my tastes, absolutely the most uninteresting, boring, uninspiring and tedious game of D&D I ever played. It felt more like some other game wearing D&D's skin to me. It just felt wrong no matter what direction I tried looking at it.

Went back to 3.x and when it released, straight over to Pathfinder. For a while those 4e books served as doorstops and makeshift monitor stands until eventually I just chucked them into the recycling bin.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Loved it. That might be because I played in a campaign for years with friends I liked. But I think it was more than that. Admittedly, I like the tactical part of the game.....so that's probably one reason.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:

Folks,

4e is out of print. It has been for years. At this point, its provenance is really an academic matter, for the history books. Ask yourself exactly how much effort, time, attention, stridency... and eventual rancor, you really want to invest in it... again.

The horse is no longer alive, folks. Do be wary of how you keep beating it.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top