[EDITION WARZ] Selling Out D&D's Soul?

[The Shaman]

"...'I don't like this' does NOT equal 'this is primitive/incomplete/badly designed'." - Old Geezer, from RPG.net

 

[VirgilCaine]

Appoligies, Fighter and Kensai.

Nevertheless, it was still a CR 17 creature with 131 hit points. That's not a challenge, that's a joke.

A 17th level wizard could have 131 hitpoints. Or less.
If it had been given levels of a spellcasting class or twice the levels it was given in Ftr/Kensai (it's nonassociated class, IMHO), it would be an appropriate challenge.

 

[I'm A Banana]

"...'I don't like this' does NOT equal 'this is primitive/incomplete/badly designed'." - Old Geezer, from RPG.net

Unfortunately, with regards to tabletop RPG's, he's mostly wrong. If there's a beastie that doesn't fit in most games, it is badly desgined. If there's an improvement on an existing system, the older system is primitive. If the new thing does something the old thing tried to do but could not, the old thing was incomplete.

If I don't like something because it doesn't fit in my games, because it doesn't incorporate improvements, or because it doesn't accomplish something that it sets out to accomplish....it is primitive, incomplete, and/or badly designed.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Unfortunately, with regards to tabletop RPG's, he's mostly wrong. If there's a beastie that doesn't fit in most games, it is badly desgined. If there's an improvement on an existing system, the older system is primitive. If the new thing does something the old thing tried to do but could not, the old thing was incomplete.

If I don't like something because it doesn't fit in my games, because it doesn't incorporate improvements, or because it doesn't accomplish something that it sets out to accomplish....it is primitive, incomplete, and/or badly designed.

Yeah, but KM, is it so easy to get an unbiased and entirely objective point-by-point comparison that clearly shows what doesn't fit/is an improvement/doesn't accomplish something, especially where tabletop RPGs and the opinions of those playing them are concerned? I think not, and this board is a good example for exactly that problem.

 

[Hussar]

A 17th level wizard could have 131 hitpoints. Or less.
If it had been given levels of a spellcasting class or twice the levels it was given in Ftr/Kensai (it's nonassociated class, IMHO), it would be an appropriate challenge.

Yup, and a 17th level wizard would have 9th level spells. Certainly a CR 17 encounter. A CR 17 Ogre Mage would have 9 levels of wizard. Woo, 5th level spells. Against 17th level characters. Again, it's a joke.

The Shaman - It's not that I don't like the Rust Monster. I just don't think that one trick pony creatures that lead to identical encounters should be included as a monster. The Green Slime and the Fungi were moved into Hazards for exactly this reason. They aren't monsters, they're living traps. Which, IMO, is precisely what a rust monster is.

Look, I'm not saying that there is no room for the rust monster. That's not it at all. What I'm saying is there's a better place for a creature like the rust monster and most of the oozes as well - Hazards. Save the Monster Manual for things that can actually be used in the widest number of campaigns.

 

[The Shaman]

Wow, those are some really unhelpful generalities, Kamikaze Midget, but no matter:

If there's a beastie that doesn't fit in most games, it is badly desgined.

"Doesn't fit?" That's your interpretation, based on your personal preferences.

If there's an improvement on an existing system, the older system is primitive.

"Improvement," again, is a matter of personal preference.

If the new thing does something the old thing tried to do but could not, the old thing was incomplete.

And I have no idea what you're talking about.

If I don't like something because it doesn't fit in my games, because it doesn't incorporate improvements, or because it doesn't accomplish something that it sets out to accomplish....it is primitive, incomplete, and/or badly designed.

Once again you slip into the fallacy of claiming that your personal preferences represent some sort of objective truth applicable to all gamers.

Old Geezer is on the money, Kamikaze Midget, and your protestations only serve to emphasize that.

 

[tx7321]

As others have stated, 3E D&D is no longer the same game as 1E. It shares similarities in names of monsters and attributes, weapons etc. but its basically a game about building PCs and making them unique. 1E is about adventure first and foremost. PC building is not really that big an issue as a 7th level fighter is basically the same as all other 7th level fighters (they typically pick the same armor and weapons more or less) and differ only in the personality the player might give it (CE, LG) shy, outgoing etc.

The former makes it more difficult to "role play" as in emersion, because your constantly reading your sheet (unless your Merric B) and figuring your roles (calculating odds); while the later makes role play very easy, because your sheet is rarely looked at and the roles are controlled by the DM via tables.

These are 2 different focuses, and 2 different reasons to play the game. Also, 3E with its feats and skills comes off as "push button" feel. Want to get past those orcs, press "tumble", want to get over that pit, bush "jump", want to get past that gaurd, press "fast talk"...you get the idea. Thats the same system used in most video games (with buttons being replaced by feats and skills). Its the same old stuff from years ago...nothing new. And no I have zero interest in an edition war. To each their own. Alot of people who liked Magic would probably like 3E. Its for a different market and kind of player then 1E...thats for sure.

 

[Thurbane]

I don't know about baby Jesus, but the resurrection of this thread sure makes me cry...

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

Thurbane, agreed. This thread is sigh-inducing.

 

[Raven Crowking]

As I said RC, I suck at making mechanics. However, it's not a bad start and with a bit of spit and polish it works.

I was hoping that you'd have given me a better model to create some new hazards with, like Ogre and Ancient Green Dragon.