Effects lasting until the end of the encounter, w00t!

[jasin]

That door you're breaking down is an encounter.

Or is it just one challenge in a big encounter that consists of the door, the orcs behind it, and the trap the orcs trigger when it's obvious they're fighting a losing fight?

There simply isn't a single answer. Which is exactly what the people who worry about per encounter and encounter-timed are complaining about.

 

[kennew142]

Or is it just one challenge in a big encounter that consists of the door, the orcs behind it, and the trap the orcs trigger when it's obvious they're fighting a losing fight?

There simply isn't a single answer. Which is exactly what the people who worry about per encounter and encounter-timed are complaining about.

I believe it could be either. If there are monsters on the other side of the door, I would certainly rule that it was the same encounter. If, however, the door was encounter in and of itself (traps, whatever) and there were no monsters involved, it would be an encounter all its own.

The new encounter design concept seems to include all challenges in an area (a concept I've used since first edition). In the now ancient series of adventures (G1, G2, G3), some encounter areas would say things like, "the giants in area 4 will respond to sounds of combat in d4 rounds, and the giant ape keeper will respond in 2d4 rounds." (An analogy, not a direct quote). In this case, all three areas together make one encounter. If 4e works like Bo9S, there will be some ways to regain per-encounter abilities during the encounter.

 

[sidonunspa]

The new trend of 4E!!!!!
From the creators of "Bag of rats"!!!!!


GOBLIN ON A LEASH!!!!!!

Tired having to recast Buffs for every encounter? Not wanting to spend precious per day buffs for a single battle? A goblin on a leash is the solution.
Cast your buffs and fight the encounter as normal. And when you vanquished your foe simply start kicking the goblin. One kick every 6 seconds is enough to keep this encounter going forever. Clear out a complete dungeon with a single casting of your buffs.
And if you call now you also get a stealthmaster 5000 gag. No monster will hear the goblin anymore, giving you valuable combat advantages.

And this complete package only costs 99.95 g.

Not satisfied? Then get the Kickmonkey Mk II. Our highly educated animal handlers trained monkeys to kick the goblin on their own. This way you can scout ahead without having to worry that the goblin won't be kicked. Or apply the Kickmonkey at night and have the buffs last whole weeks or even months. And all that for just 50 g extra*.

*Bananas not included

Thank you...

cuban coffe just flew out of my nose....

 

[Nebulous]

Or is it just one challenge in a big encounter that consists of the door, the orcs behind it, and the trap the orcs trigger when it's obvious they're fighting a losing fight?

There simply isn't a single answer. Which is exactly what the people who worry about per encounter and encounter-timed are complaining about.

The DMG needs lots of concrete examples that take into consideration situations like this. How much "downtime" actually eliminates your buffs between fights? I can see it being a sore point if not well explained, and understood, by DM and players.

 

[Remathilis]

Most of the time, we treated any spell effect with a duration of "1 hour" or less as an encounter-timed ability anyway, so this is just restating the obvious.

However, to address Imban's Exalted scenario: I think this is EXACTLY why so many of the buffs in the game will be tied to secondary actions (heal someone and give them DR, smite a foe and give your allies AC) so that every combat doesn't begin with a 5 round Super Sayan Buff-routine. The cleric or wizard can begin attacking/nuking/healing while simultaneously upping allies To Hit, AC, etc.

This also makes magical "permanent" effects more powerful and potent. Want that +4 str to kick in the door AND for throttling the Orcs behind it, then invest in that belt of giant str!

Lastly, I tend to think of an "encounter" as when I say "roll of initiative" (and perhaps the 2-3 rounds before) till whenever the PCs are looting the corpses. Something like a War might actually be several encounters strung together, like a "battlefield dungeon" of sorts, not one big melee...

 

[Imban]

Why is that?

Assuming you're preparing an ambush or a surprise assault, wouldn't it be reasonable to say that the beginning of the scene is when you start powering up, rather than the moment you jump out of the bushes/break down the door and role initiative?

Yeah, a reasonable referee would treat it like that, but the typical "dungeon" setup in D&D always seemed to encourage the people I played with to steamroll as many encounters as possible while they were gloriously glowing and buffed, then come back to pick over the loot after they were delayed or finished today's murderous work. Even with all round/level spells at level 13 or so, you could easily wipe out some low-end enemies (3 rounds), dash to the next encounter (2 rounds), and then wipe out another group (6 rounds) before your buffs wore off. Of course, this mandated tracking exact round counts outside of combat, so it might not have been for everyone.

Specifically encounter-based durations eliminate the ability to come into an encounter still glowing with the magic you cast less than a minute ago. Granted, if a lot of those buffs are going to be available for use as quickly as they wore off, the problem with that is largely eliminated.

How do these self-kill traps work?

Umm, it's mechanically specific to Exalted's combat system and so not relevant to 4e - in short, activating some of these buffs would eliminate your ability to take defensive actions until your next turn, which in certain situations would result in your being immediately slain with no chance to resist.

 

[Wormwood]

Something like a War might actually be several encounters strung together, like a "battlefield dungeon" of sorts, not one big melee...

Even the most 'realistic' war movie has dozens of individual scenes.

Cinematic gameplay? In my D&D?
It's more likely than you think!

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Yeah, a reasonable referee would treat it like that, but the typical "dungeon" setup in D&D always seemed to encourage the people I played with to steamroll as many encounters as possible while they were gloriously glowing and buffed, then come back to pick over the loot after they were delayed or finished today's murderous work. Even with all round/level spells at level 13 or so, you could easily wipe out some low-end enemies (3 rounds), dash to the next encounter (2 rounds), and then wipe out another group (6 rounds) before your buffs wore off. Of course, this mandated tracking exact round counts outside of combat, so it might not have been for everyone.

Wow - I can so see a bunch of thieves following those players around and looting the bodies as the PC's disappear off into the distance!

I agree with the earlier poster that if you can strike + buff at the same time with a combined action (like the Paladin Smite examples we were given) then hopefully this kind of thing might calm down quite a lot.

And if the other idea I've seen in this thread works out - that finishing an encounter has some beneficial points as well as some penalties - I can hope that we won't spend the first six months of 4e discussing what is and isn't an encounter.

 

[Will]

Yeah, I just had a combat last night where we had my bardic song lasting 5 rounds, someone else's buff lasting 10 rounds, another spell that had been cast earlier so had 8 rounds left to go.

And one of the enemies threw in an area dispel, so each of us got to roll to see which dropped...

Watching the new guy, a barbarian, trying to calculate his 'to hit' and 'damage' every round was hysterical. Oh, and when he got a crit, and tried to figure out what stuff multiplied.


As someone who games with several highly distracted (one couple has a 14 month old that randomly terrorizes the game) and new-to-the-game folks, I really hope 4e does as much to become approachable as the devs claim.

 

[Cadfan]

This sort of thread is exactly what bugs me about our 4e conversations.

The designers say "abilities will be per encounter."

Everyone flips out about "how do we define an encounter?" and "we can get longer buffs by stretching the encounter!" and "our DM can screw us by defining an encounter item by item!"

Except we already have a book which is built entirely around per encounter abilities, written by the same designers as the designers of 4e, and which showcases three separate ways for per encounter abilities to function. Its called Tome of Battle.

1: The Warblade recovers all of his abilities with a single standard action, OR as part of making a standard action or full round attack.

2: The Swordsage recovers all his abilities after one minute without combat. He can recover individual abilities with one full round of concentration.

3: And the Crusader (correct me if I get this one wrong) gains his abilities at the onset of hostilities as a gift from his God, and refreshes them whenever he uses a certain percentage of them up. I believe they also clear and need refreshed after one minute downtime, but I could be wrong on that.

Each one of these addresses the complaints about the definition of "per encounter. The Warblade handles things by not really being a "per encounter" character. His abilities are infinite use, with a mechanism that requires him to spend one round suboptimally in order to refresh them. If your Warblade has ONE ROUND in which he isn't fighting, he can have all his abilities back. All he's got to do, in game, is a weapon salute after the last round of combat.

The Swordsage is probably the most "per encounter" of them, and his abilities aren't strictly "per encounter" either, they're timed, but with a really, really easy to remember and really, really easy to adjudicate timing system. Instead of multiple abilities refreshing on multiple rounds, all of which need to be tracked, its "one minute of no fighting, get everything back, or one full round action to get back one." Bam, problem solved.

And finally the Crusader, who has a quirky, beloved by some, hated by others mechanic for refreshing his abilities, that happens to also use the "one minute downtime resets you" mechanic.

None of these characters have the problems people are bringing up.

Its possible that all of these lessons will have been unlearned and forgotten in the design of 4e, but I wouldn't rate that possibility very high.