Effects of writers strike on Sci Fi & Fantasy genre

overgeeked

B/X Known World
What’s weird is the legality and copyright of “AI” generated stuff. Images are already being challenged as illegal and as non-copyrightable. They are generated by using copyrighted material without permission (a copyright violation) and generating derivative works based on those earlier works (another copyright violation). So unless the studios own all the scripts used to train the “AI” free and clear with no royalties or residuals due, using “AI” to generate scripts is a monumentally fraught proposition. Any show filmed based on those would be a copyright violating derivative work of a copyright violating derivative work.
 

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Ryujin

Legend
What’s weird is the legality and copyright of “AI” generated stuff. Images are already being challenged as illegal and as non-copyrightable. They are generated by using copyrighted material without permission (a copyright violation) and generating derivative works based on those earlier works (another copyright violation). So unless the studios own all the scripts used to train the “AI” free and clear with no royalties or residuals due, using “AI” to generate scripts is a monumentally fraught proposition. Any show filmed based on those would be a copyright violating derivative work of a copyright violating derivative work.
The waters are still pretty murky out there. It's quite legal to make something that it "inspired by" another work. It's not legal to strip mine the copyrighted intellectual properly of another. So is AI strip mining copyrighted material, or is it "inspired by" that material? That's the legal question at hand.
 

What’s weird is the legality and copyright of “AI” generated stuff. Images are already being challenged as illegal and as non-copyrightable. They are generated by using copyrighted material without permission (a copyright violation) and generating derivative works based on those earlier works (another copyright violation). So unless the studios own all the scripts used to train the “AI” free and clear with no royalties or residuals due, using “AI” to generate scripts is a monumentally fraught proposition. Any show filmed based on those would be a copyright violating derivative work of a copyright violating derivative work.
I think you should check out the book: All Rights Reserved by Gregory Scott Katsoulis:

In a world where every word and gesture is copyrighted, patented or trademarked, one girl elects to remain silent rather than pay to speak, and her defiant and unexpected silence threatens to unravel the very fabric of society.

Speth Jime is anxious to deliver her Last Day speech and celebrate her transition into adulthood. The moment she turns fifteen, Speth must pay for every word she speaks (“Sorry” is a flat ten dollars and a legal admission of guilt), for every nod ($0.99/sec), for every scream ($0.99/sec) and even every gesture of affection. She’s been raised to know the consequences of falling into debt, and can’t begin to imagine the pain of having her eyes shocked for speaking words that she’s unable to afford.

But when Speth’s friend Beecher commits suicide rather than work off his family’s crippling debt, she can’t express her shock and dismay without breaking her Last Day contract and sending her family into Collection. Backed into a corner, Speth finds a loophole: rather than read her speech—rather than say anything at all—she closes her mouth and vows never to speak again. Speth’s unexpected defiance of tradition sparks a media frenzy, inspiring others to follow in her footsteps, and threatens to destroy her, her family and the entire city around them.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
What’s weird is the legality and copyright of “AI” generated stuff. Images are already being challenged as illegal and as non-copyrightable. They are generated by using copyrighted material without permission (a copyright violation) and generating derivative works based on those earlier works (another copyright violation). So unless the studios own all the scripts used to train the “AI” free and clear with no royalties or residuals due, using “AI” to generate scripts is a monumentally fraught proposition. Any show filmed based on those would be a copyright violating derivative work of a copyright violating derivative work.
It's something we don't yet have a legal structure for, and it will take years to develop one. In the meantime, it'll be a contentious area. Over the next decade, technology, law, and custom will change as they always have.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
More international stuff. For example, did you you know that the Italian show "Red Door" is basically Randel and Hopkirk [Deceased] without the jokes?
Narcos was a not-particularly-secret plan by Netflix to get everyone used to turning on their captions, airing at the same time as they were making massive purchases in international content. Korean soap operas, for instance, are now a big chunk of what they stream in the US, including to many of my non-Korean American friends.
 

Pedantic

Legend
Narcos was a not-particularly-secret plan by Netflix to get everyone used to turning on their captions, airing at the same time as they were making massive purchases in international content. Korean soap operas, for instance, are now a big chunk of what they stream in the US, including to many of my non-Korean American friends.
They're making not insignificant purchases into Chinese dramas as well. Word of Honor was very big on Netflix, though the coded M/M romance in it and similar danmei shows is now facing much bigger censorship concerns in China.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Narcos was a not-particularly-secret plan by Netflix to get everyone used to turning on their captions, airing at the same time as they were making massive purchases in international content. Korean soap operas, for instance, are now a big chunk of what they stream in the US, including to many of my non-Korean American friends.
I love that there’s more non-english content. Bollywood and Spanish-language stuff in particular. Some of the movies and shows are just so epically nuts. Stuff like Action Jackson, RRR, Bahubali, and Bol Bachchan are so completely out there. Shows and movies like Celia, Selena, El Rey: Vicente Fernández, La ley de Herodes, and Que Viva México are great. Que Viva comes out this week, but looks fantastic. Cannot wait for it to drop. Disney has most of their stuff dubbed into Spanish. It’s great. Maestro Obi Juan Kenobi is the absolute best. This will mean it’s easier to hold out on the WGA, sure, but not that long. Most people don’t want subtitles or foreign content if they can help it.
 

You don't watch enough tv if you think that a lot of shows don't have mediocre writing.

I absolutely agree that chatgpt is not going to create wonderful stuff out of the box, it has to have editing and often has to be rerun a few times to get anything worth while. But it can generate ideas you might not have thought of, it can come up with backgrounds pretty well.....and most importantly, the technology is going to continue to improve.

I know very well the limitations of the tech at the moment, but we are just at the beginning, and strikes and such will give impetus for studios to push that technology forward as best as they can. Maybe it will fall on its face and they will negotiate with the writers. Maybe they find a way to make it work "well enough" that its better to go that route that coughing up the costs the writers are asking for. Time will tell.
Read the bit you quote please dude lol. I didn't say anything about the quality of writing in shows, did I? That's all you.

I said "even mediocre" for a reason. People who think LLMs output anything worthwhile, creative writing-wise don't even know what mediocre writing looks like, let alone good writing. Most of them don't even recognise bad writing as bad.

No LLM is capable of writing anything extended at all that doesn't turn immediately into drivel, or anything even very short that is even mediocre. This is not going to change, because it is inherent to the way LLMs (as opposed to theoretical GP AIs) function.

They cannot understand context.
The cannot understand relationships between people or objects.
They cannot understand social values.
They cannot understand punchlines (nor humour as a concept, but this is where it shows up most).

This will not change.

Because they are Large Language Models. They are not thinking machines. They are put-one-word-in-front-of-another machines. People - including very senior Hollywood people are making category errors about what they are.

You are making a category error about what they are - you say you "know the limitations" but also claim "we are just at the beginning". No. That's a tautology. If you think we're "just at the beginning" of what LLMs can do in terms of creative writing, you are mistaken. You do not understand the limitations. We might be "just at the beginning" of AI in general (I'd say that was actually the 1970s, myself), but but it's GP AI which will make the difference with anything genuinely creative. It will also probably be terrifying.

And "give impetus to the technology", dude, what? How fast do you think tech moves? How many years do you think this stuff even was in the making? You think they're going to make shocking strides in LLMs in what, a month? 3 months? 6 at the outside? Absolutely they will not. In fact the discussions of LLMs show that if anything, they're basically stalled for at least a while - the large ones anyway (smaller, more specialized ones are making some headway, but they're not for creative writing). The strikes will be over, one way or another, for a very long time before even improvements in LLMs become evident.

Also, no, it doesn't "just need a bit of polishing and refining" if you use an LLM to create dialogue. They output complete drivel. Stuff that's worse than a blank page for an actual writer. That's just slew of cliches and obvious tropes in a row, but without any feeling, any real sense of who the characters are (because it can't think - though it can say have two generic archetypes and use bland, cliched lines for both), without any wit, without any intentional humour and so on. Don't confuse essentially using an LLM instead of rolling on a few charts to come up with a backstory for an NPC or details for a town or something with writing dialogue or detailed plots (and you must have detailed plots for shows, they're not RPGs) with writing a TV show.

Now, let's be clear - I'm just talking about for creative writing. LLMs have incredible potential for other fields, for good and ill. Just not for creative writing.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Read the bit you quote please dude lol. I didn't say anything about the quality of writing in shows, did I? That's all you.

I said "even mediocre" for a reason. People who think LLMs output anything worthwhile, creative writing-wise don't even know what mediocre writing looks like, let alone good writing. Most of them don't even recognise bad writing as bad.

No LLM is capable of writing anything extended at all that doesn't turn immediately into drivel, or anything even very short that is even mediocre. This is not going to change, because it is inherent to the way LLMs (as opposed to theoretical GP AIs) function.

They cannot understand context.
The cannot understand relationships between people or objects.
They cannot understand social values.
They cannot understand punchlines (nor humour as a concept, but this is where it shows up most).

This will not change.

Because they are Large Language Models. They are not thinking machines. They are put-one-word-in-front-of-another machines. People - including very senior Hollywood people are making category errors about what they are.

You are making a category error about what they are - you say you "know the limitations" but also claim "we are just at the beginning". No. That's a tautology. If you think we're "just at the beginning" of what LLMs can do in terms of creative writing, you are mistaken. You do not understand the limitations. We might be "just at the beginning" of AI in general (I'd say that was actually the 1970s, myself), but but it's GP AI which will make the difference with anything genuinely creative. It will also probably be terrifying.

And "give impetus to the technology", dude, what? How fast do you think tech moves? How many years do you think this stuff even was in the making? You think they're going to make shocking strides in LLMs in what, a month? 3 months? 6 at the outside? Absolutely they will not. In fact the discussions of LLMs show that if anything, they're basically stalled for at least a while - the large ones anyway (smaller, more specialized ones are making some headway, but they're not for creative writing). The strikes will be over, one way or another, for a very long time before even improvements in LLMs become evident.

Also, no, it doesn't "just need a bit of polishing and refining" if you use an LLM to create dialogue. They output complete drivel. Stuff that's worse than a blank page for an actual writer. That's just slew of cliches and obvious tropes in a row, but without any feeling, any real sense of who the characters are (because it can't think - though it can say have two generic archetypes and use bland, cliched lines for both), without any wit, without any intentional humour and so on. Don't confuse essentially using an LLM instead of rolling on a few charts to come up with a backstory for an NPC or details for a town or something with writing dialogue or detailed plots (and you must have detailed plots for shows, they're not RPGs) with writing a TV show.

Now, let's be clear - I'm just talking about for creative writing. LLMs have incredible potential for other fields, for good and ill. Just not for creative writing.
Yeah, it can't even do Hallmark Channel level material.

Also really, really bad at metaphysical or ethical discourse, which is what I tried to get out of it. Like, yikes.
 

Yeah, it can't even do Hallmark Channel level material.

Also really, really bad at metaphysical or ethical discourse, which is what I tried to get out of it. Like, yikes.
God's it's beyond awful at those, yes. Another it can't really do as far as I can see, even with the best prompts, is really makes references (to pop culture, to previous events, etc.). And making references is a very basic way of doing writing. It's low-grade stuff that you might expect a very dumb to at least be capable of doing. But because it doesn't understand context, and references pretty much require context, that's out.
 

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