Eldritch Blast as a class feature of the Warlock

[Bill Zebub]

Why for warlocks and not clerics? Surely a priest's connection with their deity should be at least as unique and personal as a warlock's with their patron.

I suppose ideally it would. Although it's not the "unique personal connection" I'm looking at, but the nature of the being with whom the connection is made. Warlock Patrons are, as mentioned, Dragons, Fey, Abyssals, etc., while Clerics all worship "Deities", which aren't even really defined. Also there's a lot more history to Clerics, and they know a lot more spells so the custom lists would get a lot more unwieldy.

The Warlock spell list doesn't bother me in the way EB itself does. I just think it would help differentiate Warlocks as more unique from other spellcasters if there were pact-specific spell lists.

Do you not see any of this? Do you not find the Eldritch Blast thing to be a little wonky?

 

[MarkB]

I suppose ideally it would. Although it's not the "unique personal connection" I'm looking at, but the nature of the being with whom the connection is made. Warlock Patrons are, as mentioned, Dragons, Fey, Abyssals, etc., while Clerics all worship "Deities", which aren't even really defined. Also there's a lot more history to Clerics, and they know a lot more spells so the custom lists would get a lot more unwieldy.

The Warlock spell list doesn't bother me in the way EB itself does. I just think it would help differentiate Warlocks as more unique from other spellcasters if there were pact-specific spell lists.

Do you not see any of this? Do you not find the Eldritch Blast thing to be a little wonky?

I picture the nature of a warlock pact as being separate from the nature of the patron itself. The pact allows a character to access a generic form of otherworldly power that manifests broadly similarly for any warlock regardless of patron - just having an otherworldly connection allows the character to tap into a particular form of magic, rather than it being a specific manifestation of their patron's will. Where it gets personal is in the additional spells and class features granted by each specific patron.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I picture the nature of a warlock pact as being separate from the nature of the patron itself. The pact allows a character to access a generic form of otherworldly power that manifests broadly similarly for any warlock regardless of patron - just having an otherworldly connection allows the character to tap into a particular form of magic, rather than it being a specific manifestation of their patron's will. Where it gets personal is in the additional spells and class features granted by each specific patron.

Oh, interesting. Like the "Pact" is not just a description of a bargain, but really an entity in itself, magical and universal, that powerful creatures can learn how to harness?

Yeah, that would explain a lot.

Interesting.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I like the idea that the patron consumes some of the hp's that EB takes (you notice it doesn't affect objects). EB could be pretty common among warlocks because it has the best ratio for spells (maybe the patron consumes 75% of the hp's, as opposed to only getting 25% from the fireball spell it taught the warlock). I like it story-wise because the patron is getting something from the relationship, and it doesn't have to boss around the warlock (and in fact, some patrons might allow foolish mortals to think they have stolen the warlock power) because the warlock murder hoboing (or nobly fighting the evils of the world) gives the patron what it wants.

It does make a body wonder what the celestial patrons are up to.

That being said, I am a 4e warlock fan, and I would rather the spell that became a central class feature be hex.

 

[NaturalZero]

Having a EB be a poachable spell that auto-scales with level instead of class is one of the proud nails of 5e design. Every Cha build gets a sizable boost just by picking up 2 levels of warlock and walking away. It, like a lot of features, would be more easy to balance if it was a class feature that scaled with warlock levels.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's a spell. It uses spell mechanics. Those others things are class abilities.

EB might not continue to be a spell though. They are at least considering making it into a class feature instead, in which case I imagine it might no longer use spell mechanics.

 

[Bill Zebub]

EB might not continue to be a spell though. They are at least considering making it into a class feature instead, in which case I imagine it might no longer use spell mechanics.

Yes: upthread I was saying that’s why I think it should be a class feature not a spell.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yes: upthread I was saying that’s why I think it should be a class feature not a spell.

Got it. Makes sense.

 

[Clint_L]

It's a fair question, and I had to think about it.

I think what it is is that even though it's an Arcane spell, it's "granted" by the Patron. And that Patron can be almost any sort of being...Fey, Celestial, Abyssal, Undead, Draconic, etc. So being able to grant this ability is a pretty universal thing. And yet actual Deities cannot.

And it's true that the Warlock's other spells are also granted by their Patron, and many of those are on the Wizard lists but not the Cleric list, so the same question could be asked of those.

But not only is Eldritch Blast exclusively a Warlock thing, but it's also:
a) Just a cantrip
b) Just an attack cantrip, of which everybody has at least one

So basically there's nothing in the fiction that, to me, makes sense as to why every single Warlock, regardless of Patron, gets this spell, and nobody else does (except for the Bard edge case). It just reeks of the designers saying, "Let's give this class a really cool attack cantrip that makes them special" with zero fictional support.

It still seems peculiar. What about paladin only spells? Those could be granted by the same deity the cleric worships, but not to the cleric.

It seems to me that the cleric/deity relationship is fundamentally different from the warlock/patron relationship, so I like the idea of it being exclusive to warlocks. I don’t care if it’s called an ability or a feature or a spell, but it should automatic. So much of the class assumes the character has it that it seems very odd that you can make a warlock without eldritch blast, yet I could see a new payer making that mistake.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It still seems peculiar. What about paladin only spells?
Those could be granted by the same deity the cleric worships, but not to the cleric.

An "oath" is not a relationship with a powerful individual, so Clerics get their powers from a different source. Q.E.F.D.

It seems to me that the cleric/deity relationship is fundamentally different from the warlock/patron relationship, so I like the idea of it being exclusive to warlocks.

Oh, I like the idea of exclusive powers as well. And I like that it is somehow related to the "Pact". Again, it's just weird to me that every single "lesser" being, of any type, that signs a pact is able to grant this spell, but not a single "greater" being, i.e. Deities, is able to do so.

@MarkB's idea that it's not a pact but a Pact, and signing such a pact invokes or taps into a kind of ancient power that is distinct from those signing it, is an elegant solution, in my mind. It could also mean that it binds the Patron in meaningful ways, as well. Even Archfeys and Demon Lords wouldn't violate a Pact lightly!

I don’t care if it’s called an ability or a feature or a spell, but it should automatic. So much of the class assumes the character has it that it seems very odd that you can make a warlock without eldritch blast, yet I could see a new payer making that mistake.

Which is why it should be a class ability and not a cantrip from a spell list.

 

[Clint_L]

There are ramifications to making it an ability rather than a spell, though. For instance, it could no longer be counterspelled. Would it be affected by antimagic - does it count, for example, as an "other magical effect"...and if so, could it be considered one "created by a deity" and thus immune? Making it an ability rather than an exclusive spell does open category issues that could potentially be confusing. That's not to say it's a bad idea, but there are some potential consequences that would have to be taken into account.

 

[Bill Zebub]

There are ramifications to making it an ability rather than a spell, though. For instance, it could no longer be counterspelled. Would it be affected by antimagic - does it count, for example, as an "other magical effect"...and if so, could it be considered one "created by a deity" and thus immune? Making it an ability rather than an exclusive spell does open category issues that could potentially be confusing. That's not to say it's a bad idea, but there are some potential consequences that would have to be taken into account.

That's part of the general problem with spells becoming abilities. Seems to me a lot of ability descriptions could start with "You cast a spell that..." Or simply:

Eldritch Blast (spell): As an Action....etc.

That could be used in class descriptions and monster stat blocs.

 

[mellored]

Do you not see any of this? Do you not find the Eldritch Blast thing to be a little wonky?

IMO, it's supposed to be a bit wonky.

You might even say, weird and sinister, or ghostly.
Perhaps otherworldly.
Or strange or unnatural especially in a way that inspires fear.

 

[mellored]

Also, might I suggest that each subclass gives it a different damage type? Just for flavor?

Sure. Force is pretty universal, so it's not really a power boost.
But infernal pact should have fire damage.
GOO needs some psychic.
Ect...

 

[Sir Brennen]

Some of these questions about the "same-y" Eldritch Blast may be resolved by how the 1D&D warlock is constructed. If, as has been implied, they don't get their subclass until 3rd level, then 1st and 2nd levels could be considered "prep-work" for looking into, or becoming worthy of, gaining a patron. Part of that prep-work involves learning Eldritch Blast, which is why it's common to all warlocks.

 

[Gorck]

Oh, I like the idea of exclusive powers as well. And I like that it is somehow related to the "Pact". Again, it's just weird to me that every single "lesser" being, of any type, that signs a pact is able to grant this spell, but not a single "greater" being, i.e. Deities, is able to do so.

Maybe the Patrons lure in the Warlocks with the sweet taste of Eldritch Blast. They offer this power in exchange for complete devotion. Then, once you're hooked, you're theirs for life.

Whereas Deities might be a bit more indifferent (Worship me if you must. Or don't. I couldn't care less either way) or aloof (Huh? Did some tiny, microscopic creature just try to get my attention? Oh well, I don't have time for such trivialities).

 

[Pedantic]

You might look at how A5E did this for some examples of my how it might work. They turned it into an action that involves a spell attack but isn't a spell and then offered 4 variants a warlock can pick from. The warlock is one of the more changed glasses in A5E in general, but this particular change would love easily back to 5e.

A5E Warlock

 

[Bill Zebub]

Some of these questions about the "same-y" Eldritch Blast may be resolved by how the 1D&D warlock is constructed. If, as has been implied, they don't get their subclass until 3rd level, then 1st and 2nd levels could be considered "prep-work" for looking into, or becoming worthy of, gaining a patron. Part of that prep-work involves learning Eldritch Blast, which is why it's common to all warlocks.

I’m perfectly fine with representing my patron through spell selection and roleplaying, and don’t feel the need to have unique mechanical powers to make that relationship meaningful. Or, expressed more mundanely, I will stick my Patron, and thus my subclass, at 1st level. I just won't get any mechanical benefit until 3rd level. Which, again, is fine with me.

 

[Incenjucar]

I would expect that a patron-based eldritch blast would just mean you pick the damage type at level 1.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I would expect that a patron-based eldritch blast would just mean you pick the damage type at level 1.

At which point the special sauce unique to Warlocks is that:
1) It's multiple attacks of 1 die each, instead of one attack of multiple dice (like that pedestrian 'cantrip' garbage)
2) You can make it better with invocations