[ELH] Question concerning multiclassed casters

[Telor]

I have a cleric in my group that plans on taking the Divine Champion [FR] prestigue class. (For those of you who don't own FRCS, divine champion is a fighter/paladin PrC combination. It does not grant spell levels). By taking this PrC, when he reaches lvl 20 he will not have access to 9th level spells.

I'll admit I don't have much ELH knowledge yet but I can't find anyway for him to increase his spell knowledge to get the 9th level spells. The third paragraph of Improved Spell Capacity confuses me. "You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level." The normal maximum spell level for all classes except pallys and rangers is 9th level and this guy doesn't have access to 9th at level 20 due to his PrC.

If he is essentially 'done' as a cleric because he can never gain 9th level spells he (and my other players who rely on his cleric spells) is screwed. Without getting 9th level it just snowballs into him never being able to get 10th or 11th level spells. He may as well consider himself an Epic fighter I suppose.

I appreciate those of you who take your time to answer my ELH newbie question.

Thank you very much,
Telor

 

[Crothian]

Let's say the character in question is level 15/5 cleric/Divine champion. His next level as a cleric would be 16th level. After a few more levels he will max out the spell level ability of the cleric at 20th level (25th character level.). So, the character will have to gain these additional cleric levels (or in a prestige class that grants cleric spellcasting levels). However, he is in no way missing out on anything, he just needs to advance a little farther to be able to do this.

 

[Telor]

Thank you Crothian.

I sort of thought this was the answer, I just wished they'd be slightly more clear on the character vs class difference. The quote is, "However, your spells per day don't increase after 20th level."
Is that 20th class level or 20th character level. I assumed the answer was character level but I needed to know.

I have another question, this one is about my (N)PC sorcerer.

My sorcerer will be a 15sorc/5Archmage [FR] when he is level 20.
Now, playing by the rules, I assume that he has to be a 20sorc/5Archmage in order to start the Epic Sorcerer progression (essentially earning the epic bonus feats down the road).

I have a big problem with this since the only thing that my sorcerer will get from sorc levels 16-20 is the familiar progression.

The PHB sorcerer gets 0 specials. The epic levels negate the BAB, Saves, and Spell Progression that exist in the PHB for multiclassed characters.

A wizard or fighter prestigued for 5 levels can go back and pick up the extra feats (albeit none of them can be epic feats) that they missed from prestiging. A druid, monk, etc. can go back and pick up their specials. A sorcerer gets nothing when he goes back so essentially my first 5 epic levels do nothing.

Yes I understand that the epic feats, skills, BAB, and saves are there but they're there universally for everyone.

I think I'm making a ruling that anyone who took a PrC that added spell levels to the class can either go back to the original class to pick up stuff they missed or move onto the epic progression.

What are the possible problems with this ruling?

Thanks a lot for the help,
Telor

 

[Crothian]

You are right, that in some instances it really makes getting those final levels of sorcerer useless. Unless you really want epic sorcerer levels, I would suggest one of two alternatives. The first is to take another prestige class. The second and one I would do is expand the Archmage Prestige class. I know the book says that expanding the prestige classes that are not 10 levels is frowned upon, but the Archmage class is not easy to get into in the first place.

 

[Caliber]

Either extend Archmage, or slug it out through several useless levels. Or, if it fits your character concept, pick up a new PrC, possibly an Epic PrC.

What would an extended Archmage possess? It is hard to tell. I am not sure exactly how a new High Arcana every level would really pan out. After all, High Arcana "costs" spell slots, so in some ways it is like more extreme metamagic. I guess that would be up to the DM (which just so happens to be you.)

If they continue to progress with High Arcanas, bonus feats should be few and far between. Otherwise, a new feat every two or three levels should be good.

Just my thoughts.

 

[kreynolds]

If they continue to progress with High Arcanas, bonus feats should be few and far between. Otherwise, a new feat every two or three levels should be good.

I couldn't agree more. The Archmage prestige class is a poster child for 5 level prestige classes that don't fit within the epic level rules (without a bit of work, that is). The Archmage does not represent a focus upon a career path of way of life. It's a quick burst of power in a short amount of time. I might do something like this for it though (rough ideas)...

Lvl Special
6 High Arcana
7
8
9 High Arcana
10
11
12 High Arcana
13
14
15 High Arcana
16
17
18 High Arcana
19
20
21 High Arcana
22
etc...

Also, I would follow the normal Spells per day of Wizard or Sorcerer, depending on how you add +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class.

Essentially, I see the High Arcana feature as replacing the bonus feat that an epic sorcerer or wizard would normally get (every 3rd level), as seen in Table 1-12 and Table 1-14 on page 16 of the ELH. You might even do it every 4th level, or possibly every 6th to 8th level if you include bonus feats. You could even just replace every 3rd or 4th bonus feat with High Arcana, but I probably wouldn't do it as every other feat.

EDIT: My list turned out lookin' like crap, but I think you get the idea.

 

[drnuncheon]

Thank you Crothian.

I sort of thought this was the answer, I just wished they'd be slightly more clear on the character vs class difference. The quote is, "However, your spells per day don't increase after 20th level."
Is that 20th class level or 20th character level. I assumed the answer was character level but I needed to know.

I have another question, this one is about my (N)PC sorcerer.

My sorcerer will be a 15sorc/5Archmage [FR] when he is level 20.
Now, playing by the rules, I assume that he has to be a 20sorc/5Archmage in order to start the Epic Sorcerer progression (essentially earning the epic bonus feats down the road).

I have a big problem with this since the only thing that my sorcerer will get from sorc levels 16-20 is the familiar progression.

The PHB sorcerer gets 0 specials. The epic levels negate the BAB, Saves, and Spell Progression that exist in the PHB for multiclassed characters.

A wizard or fighter prestigued for 5 levels can go back and pick up the extra feats (albeit none of them can be epic feats) that they missed from prestiging. A druid, monk, etc. can go back and pick up their specials. A sorcerer gets nothing when he goes back so essentially my first 5 epic levels do nothing.

Yes I understand that the epic feats, skills, BAB, and saves are there but they're there universally for everyone.

I think I'm making a ruling that anyone who took a PrC that added spell levels to the class can either go back to the original class to pick up stuff they missed or move onto the epic progression.

What are the possible problems with this ruling?

Well, you *are* a 20th level caster, so you can go on to pick up Epic Spellcasting or Improved Spell Capacity. Since you won't be increasing your spells at all, I think there's no problem with you saying the Archmage 'counts as' Sorcerer, and just moving on to the Epic Sorcerer. Your familiar will be 5 levels behind, but oh well. 8)

For classes that have other abilities, though, I don't think this would work properly. It'd really depend on the character.

J

 

[Taluron]

A few points about taking those sorcerer level 16-20

1. You will increase your effective caster level by one each time, increasing range, duration, spell penetration and possibly damage.

2. You will increase you familiars abilities (which you previously mentioned).

3. You will get the sorcerer's HD and skill points.

4. You will get epic BAB and save bonuses.
So it is incorrect to say the ONLY thing that happens is your familiar get better.

In one of our campaigns the increased spell penetration alone is worth the characters weight in gold. That DM gives high SR's.

 

[BigAl]

Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn't the sorcerer get more spells/day for Sor16-Sor20?

Does reaching character level 20 suddenly change the rules, even if none of the class levels are above 20?

- Al

 

[Macbrea]

After reaching 20th level caster. You gain no more spell progressin unless you take a feat that gives you more spells or a higher slot. So, Sorceror 15/ archmage 5 would be a 20th level caster and gain no more spells. They do still gain a new feat every 3 levels and can take epic level feat at 21st level.