Eliminating charisma

Stalker0 said:
Do you still keep charisma for monsters?

If not, what stat will you base their spell like abilities on?
It wouldn't really hurt to keep the charisma stat for monsters, simply so that it doesn't require a re-write of every monster ever. However, if I was a game-designer redesigning D&D, I'd base charisma-based powers on wisdom and make sure that the resulting DC is not too high or low, adjusting wisdom accordingly.

Bagpuss said:
How do you roleplay a feint?
Make it a feat in the vein of sunder. Make an opposed attack roll against your opponent. If you win, your enemy is flat-footed against your next attack.

Anyone can do it, but they provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have the feat, gain a +4 bonus and provoke no attacks of opportunity.

Bagpuss said:
How do you roleplay demoralise in combat?
This could be done with a feat also. I've not seen anyone ever use this, though. Alternatively, opposed wisdom checks, representing a battle of wills, perhaps? Bonuses and penalties would apply depending on what threat the player uses, and what their character looks and acts like.

Bagpuss said:
What's Turn Undead going on now since making it Wisdom seems to make Cleric get double the bonus for increasing one attribute. It's not like they aren't strong enough already...
Although you have a fair point that the cleric is already a very strong class and they don't need more power, I would recommend that turn undead go on wisdom. Perhaps my players and DMs have never munched it with much skill, but I've never really seen turn undead used to great effect beyond the very early levels. I think it's in need of house ruling of its own.
 
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It seems to me that doing away with charisma and its related skills is something of a mistake, because sometimes you need influence rather than force. Things like intimidate would work fine using wisdom, but the skills like diplomacy, etc, are necessary in circumstances that require social finesse, instead of pushiness.

I use a casting sytem wherein clerics and the like are granted divine power to use based on their level and their charisma. All of their power comes from somewhere else, and is based on how influential they are in the name of whatever benefactor they serve. Also, turning undead, divine channeling abilities, and especially effects like Prayer are all charisma-based. Not saying that you should adopt or come up with such a system of your own, but it would solve the problem nicely.

Sorcerer characters, by the by, use a will save, have powers, and don't control them very well, though they grow stronger fairly quickly. Hence, the will save is actually a control check to keep things from getting out of hand.

Wizards, of course, use intelligence, because, it didn't seem as broken as the other two abilities' assigned uses.
 

papastebu said:
It seems to me that doing away with charisma and its related skills is something of a mistake, because sometimes you need influence rather than force. Things like intimidate would work fine using wisdom, but the skills like diplomacy, etc, are necessary in circumstances that require social finesse, instead of pushiness.
Uh, I'm not saying "never solve problems by talking and interaction", I'm saying, "the rules for talking and interaction are quite poor, let's simply replace them with roleplaying". Most players I've played with or DMed for roleplay 99% of interaction rather than saying "I diplomacy at him, I got a 22", and lots of players dump charisma, so let's just get rid of it.

We have a perfectly good system for interacting with NPCs and so forth already, talking to them. If we chuck out charisma, we solve all that dump-stat stuff, as well as the arguments with people being able to convince Mephistopheles to be "helpful" to them with one dice roll :)
 

LOL :lol:

I see your point, but it's in my nature to fix that which is not broken by breaking it completely.

Contrary, you say? I THINK NOT! :p

But seriously, I think that it is not a horrible thing to have, as you say, a "dump stat." I feel like without some ability that the player doesn't care about, you'll have a lot of grumbling around the table come game time. Fighters don't have any real need for intelligence, do they? What about wizards and strength? There are other examples, but the reason I presented my solution was that it salves wounds that might be made by taking away the one stat that everybody generally dumps their bad roll onto, but it also solves the problem of what to do about charisma without actually doing away with it.

As to talking the Devil out of eating the party's souls, that shouldn't be up to a simple mechanical solution, anyway. That should be pure roleplaying, except, maybe, for the characters' initial reaction to so powerful and terrifying a personage--just to set the mood.
 

I was in a game where this type of thing got screwy. The GM played a VERY loose system of 3.5 (meaning he basically winged everything and numbers weren't really that important). Anyways, he believed that players should BE their characters and be in-character all the time. Well, one of the players had a different opinion. She said, "I don't lie well, but my character does. Why should I have to actually think of how my character would bluff? Do you want me to actually try and swing my quarterstaff? And do you REALLY want me to sit here and actually try to pull off a Light spell?". Dave (the GM) really had no response and the game died the next session anyway. But Lindsay brought up a valid point. We aren't our characters. We shouldn't be required to convince the king to set us free anymore than we should actually have to pick a lock so that our rogue succeeds. The mechanics are there to give players an accurate gauge on how their characters would handle a given situation. In my games, we are playing around with a complex skill check variant I found here at EnWorld. So far, the players love it. It's a game mechanic that makes success or failure dependent on the character, not the player. Players are still roleplaying, but reacting within the parameters of the results of multiple rolls so they can visualize what is happening. It's not really fair to let highly charismatic players talk their characters out of every situation while the shy one in the group just has to sit back and follow along and watch their characters suffer because they don't possess the same skills as the players running them.

I actually don't even really get the whole "dump stat" idea anyways. In a balanced adventure, characters should be faced with situations that require all of their ability scores at some point. If a fighter wants to use CHA as his "dump stat", fine. But his gruffness and lack of social etiquette should have some consequences if the GM is trying to challenge the party. Granted, if a fighter is playing in a "kick in the doors" campaign, then his CHA will almost never come into play. My players treat all of their stats as important on some level. A low stat does represent a character weakness, but the player should be aware of that and roleplay his character accordingly. They could also think of ways to compensate for that low score. For me, it's the range of ability scores that make characters unique. One less stat would seem to make them less unique. I guess that some DM's only throw things at their characters' strengths, but my players don't like that kind of game (that's how I used to DM). The real challenges for my players is when the crude barbarian has to talk his way out of being hauled off to jail, or when the clumsy cleric is the only one that can cross the beam over the lava flow to flip the switch and release his friends (sorry for the cheesy examples :heh: ).

As I was typing this, I realized that the "dump stat" idea must have been born out of the point buy system. We don't use point buy. I've got one player in my group who has been playing since 1980 and another since '78ish. They prefer the "luck of the roll". They actually let the dice somewhat determine what character they are going to take (we roll 4d6 and throw out lowest, 6 times, in stat order, pick the set you want). The more I think about it, I can kind of see where someone using point buy might want to do something like this. It has just seemed to me that the point buy is another symptom of reducing characters to statistics, and just focusing on the numbers, rather than the soul, of the character. I know that it's a more statistically balanced way to generate character parties than rolling, and I know that some players actually have a very specific character they want to play and the point buy system allows them to build it.

And in regards to the assertion that charismatic players almost always play charismatic characters and shy players almost play shy characters, I have 2 examples of the opposite in my group. Aaron is a really quiet guy by nature. In fact some of my friends get a little nervous around because he is almost too quiet. But in our game, he plays a brash barbarian who is always reminding the other characters how he is always saving their bacon. On the other end of the scope is Scott. Scott is one of the brightest people I've ever met. He runs his own successful computer consulting company and he and I are usually jostling for position as the center of attention at our social gettogethers. But he is currently playing a Rogue with a lot of skeletons in his closet, so his character is pretty tight-lipped.

Rather than dump the dump stat, why not make it play more of a factor in your game so that people won't make it sooo low? If players know they are in a world where every stat will come into play at some point, they might not be so quick to throw a 6 into something to get that precious 18. Anyhoo, I'm not against your idea at all. I'm just offering an alternative to making characters less unique by eliminating a stat. I guess the only thing I disagree with is that players should be determining the success or failure of their characters instead of the characters. To me, the numbers are like an actor's script. An actor is still playing the part, but the script tells him how his characters is reacting to the given situation. If a player rolls a 6 on his Diplomacy Check, then he would roleplay his character making a social faux pas, like belching or unintentionally insulting the king by speaking negatively of the Guard Captain, who just happens to be the King's nephew. I guess we use the skill checks to aid in our roleplay, not replace them. My group just uses the numbers to determine how their character would react or perform or what their character would say, not try and use their own personality to speak for the character.

At the end of the day, if all of your players want to drop CHA and think it will make the game better, I wouldn't hesitate to do it. But I would definitely run it by the players before instituting the rule. Some of them might not want to lose an ability score and have to speak for their characters. If they all do, it might just make for some really great roleplaying! :)
 


I agree that cha is an underpowered stat, but my instinct is to give it something thats hard to avoid wanting/needing rather than getting rid of the stat. Action points or a morale system of some sort might be good add ons that could enhance both the game and the stat together.
 

The Levitator said:
As I was typing this, I realized that the "dump stat" idea must have been born out of the point buy system. We don't use point buy. I've got one player in my group who has been playing since 1980 and another since '78ish. They prefer the "luck of the roll". They actually let the dice somewhat determine what character they are going to take (we roll 4d6 and throw out lowest, 6 times, in stat order, pick the set you want). The more I think about it, I can kind of see where someone using point buy might want to do something like this. It has just seemed to me that the point buy is another symptom of reducing characters to statistics, and just focusing on the numbers, rather than the soul, of the character. I know that it's a more statistically balanced way to generate character parties than rolling, and I know that some players actually have a very specific character they want to play and the point buy system allows them to build it.
I remember the concept of the "dump stat" (if not the term) from 1e/2e. It was where you "dumped" your low roll. 4d6, drop the lowest, assign as desired. That was the standard character roll up system in 2e (if I remember correctly) and an option in 1e.

That said, I agree with the rest of your statement. There is no "dump stat" if the gamemaster makes all stats important. I have never liked the idea of roleplaying all character interactions without any help from the dice. I am a quiet person, myself, and I suck at roleplaying most of the time. So that would mean that I could never play the leader or diplomat? Meh. To each their own, I guess.
 

Laman Stahros said:
I remember the concept of the "dump stat" (if not the term) from 1e/2e. It was where you "dumped" your low roll. 4d6, drop the lowest, assign as desired. That was the standard character roll up system in 2e (if I remember correctly) and an option in 1e.

Ahh yes! :) I agree that the concept has been around that long, but I just don't remember the terminolgy bring thrown around so much. Also, I was always playing with hard core DM's who made us keep our stats in the order we rolled them so I guess we didn't have the "dump" option. The only thing we eventually got him to do was to let us "buy" better stats, by spending 2 points in 1 ability score to raise another ability score 1 point. Geez, I DO sound like a geezer! :p Next I'll be telling people we used parchment paper for our character sheets, real bones for dice, and chicken blood and feathers for writing instruments! :lol:
 

As a curiosity:

We are currently playing in a Ptolus campaign. 2 Paladins, an urban ranger (spell-less), a rogue, a (Monte Cook) variant bard, and an urban druid (from dragon)

Whats curious you ask?

If you average the ability scores of all the group, Charisma will be the highest of them all. I think its something to the effect of two 18, two 17, one 16, and one 14 or 15.

arnon
 

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