Eliminating extra numbers: Arcane Spell Failure

[Aeric]

Agreed. Just don't give mages any armor proficiency. If they wanna wear it, they gotta waste valuable feats.

Or take a level in a class such as fighter.

 

[Stalker0]

Concentration checks become VERY easy at high level. The "nice" thing about ASF is that there is no way to reduce or overcome it. It's a flat chance, like Concealment's miss chance, so it's equally "effective" at every level.

Is that necessarily a problem though? I mean, if a wizard wants to wear full plate at 10th level, is that such an issue? Their hitpoints are still terrible, and as we all know unless you focus on AC it tends to matter less and less at high levels. AND the wizard is still not proficient with it unless he takes classes or feats. So...what's the problem?

 

[jeffh]

Just change it to a straight d20 roll vs spell failure DC, and you maintain the current probabilities that you have.

Padded armour, bucklers and light shields become DC 1, leather DC 2, studded leather and heavy shields DC 3, chain shirts and hide DC 4, scale mail and breastplate DC 5, chainmail DC 6, banded mail and full plate DC 7, splint mail and half-plate DC 8, tower shields DC 10, and all DCs stack when using multiple items. Actually, I suppose the DCs would really be the added numbers for all items, +1.

You want to add 1 to each of those numbers, since bullseyeing the DC is a success.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

And why would they do that? There's no penalty for being nonproficient in armor, and no requirement of proficiency to wear it. The only drawbacks are suffering ASF and an armor check penalty. To a spellcaster that's no trouble at all. "Oh, I'll have trouble climbing in this because I'm nonproficient? Well I guess I always have Spider Climb, Jump, Levitate, and Fly to rely on...." "Oh, it's going to make it harder for me to hit things? Well good thing I don't really bother with swords and bows and suchlike. And my Scorching Rays are really quite easy to aim, y'know."

Actually there is a penalty: it's -ACP to all your attack rolls AND str- and dex- based checks and skills. So say goodbye to your scorching rays because your BAB already sucks--good luck hitting a 13 touch AC at level 3 with a -8 to hit while firing into melee. And also instead of this whole scenario, what stops core mages from already having +8 AC all the time? Not much. Mage Armor + Shield = free full plate.

So you're double dipping your penalties on climb and stealth and jump and what not, which are already awful. Good luck jumping that 5 foot chasm with a -19 jump check (-1 str, -6 ACP, -6 nonproficiency penalty, -6 for having a speed of 20'), since you already used fly to get to the top of the mountain, then spider climb to get up the giant's fortress wall.

Arcane Spell Failure is garbage. There is NOTHING unbalancing about arcane casters getting a +8 armor bonus. I mean they already can get bracers of armor. Who cares? It's an old-time sacred cow mechanic that's got nothing to do with game balance. Clerics roll out in full plate and do damn near everything a wizard can do plus more, and nobody says a word about that.

Probably the very best house rule would be eliminating ASF, but requiring proficiency to wear armor. So fighter/mages can get ripped up AC and single class casters can get it with a lot of trouble.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Actually there is a penalty: it's -ACP to all your attack rolls AND str- and dex- based checks and skills.

And what happens if you're wearing light armor made out of materials like Mithral, such that its ACP is 0? You'd take a -0 penalty to all attack rolls, and a lot of skill checks. Yeah, THAT hurts a lot.

There are many materials that reduce ACP, even in the DMG. There are armor enchantments (from various splatbooks) that reduce it further. You could probably even get the Breastplate down to ACP -0 if you tried hard.

Basically, to keep this from being unbalanced, you'd need to give some additional penalty for armor nonproficiency.

Also,

Mage Armor + Shield = free full plate.

No, Mage Armor = half of unenchanted free full plate, and Shield = a lightly enchanted shield with a short duration. If you've already accepted that a caster can wear heavy armor, then why not a shield? Even a buckler would work nicely, and that leaves the hands free.

If you could wear +5 Full Plate and a +5 heavy shield, that's +20 AC, compared to +8 for those two spells. Even unenchanted versions (i.e., dirt cheap) would have +10 AC, and it only goes up from there.

 

[Kurashu]

No, Mage Armor = half of unenchanted free full plate, and Shield = a lightly enchanted shield with a short duration. If you've already accepted that a caster can wear heavy armor, then why not a shield? Even a buckler would work nicely, and that leaves the hands free.

If you could wear +5 Full Plate and a +5 heavy shield, that's +20 AC, compared to +8 for those two spells. Even unenchanted versions (i.e., dirt cheap) would have +10 AC, and it only goes up from there.

Except Mage Armor and Shield are force effects. Don't weigh anything. Don't slow you down. And offer no penalties (other than being temporary).

 

[Old Gumphrey]

And what happens if you're wearing light armor made out of materials like Mithral, such that its ACP is 0? You'd take a -0 penalty to all attack rolls, and a lot of skill checks. Yeah, THAT hurts a lot.

Oh noes you mean a mage wearing a mithral shirt is just as good as a mage with Mage Armor? Broken!

No, Mage Armor = half of unenchanted free full plate, and Shield = a lightly enchanted shield with a short duration. If you've already accepted that a caster can wear heavy armor, then why not a shield? Even a buckler would work nicely, and that leaves the hands free.

Why not a shield? *shrug* Don't forget the -5 full plate ACP. Toting a mithral buckler has 0% ASF and has been a long time twink for mage players, so that is nothing new to me.

If you could wear +5 Full Plate and a +5 heavy shield, that's +20 AC, compared to +8 for those two spells. Even unenchanted versions (i.e., dirt cheap) would have +10 AC, and it only goes up from there.

Let's pretend that the mage's entire cash flow is in these two items (to see the lowest level this is possible, which is about 2k higher than 10th, so about what you'd look like one session after hitting 10th in an actual game). Then we're going to give another mage actual mage items and see how that looks.

+5 full plate: -5 ACP (very painful whether you believe it or not), costs 26,650 gp. +13 AC
+5 heavy shield: -1 ACP, costs 25,170 gp. +7 AC

So this guy has -6 to all rolls, plus he has to prepare special spells just to make sure he doesn't die from climbing or jumping. Nobody's going to carry his metal-covered ass, either. Nothing to boost his mage abilities, but he's got an (impressive) +20 AC, giving him a max AC of 31 before any AC buffs (only one I can think of that would work is Haste).

Meanwhile Mage B has a rod of Lesser Maximize (14k), Lesser Empower (9k), Lesser Extend (3k), Headband of Intellect +4 (16k), and a Ring of Protection +2 (8k).

So this guy has no penalties at all, plus extra spells and another +2 to his save DCs. His greater mage armor lasts for 20 hours with no level adjustment. He can throw a 37 point magic missile, a 90-point fireball, and a 90-point lightning bolt with no level adjustment. After a quickened shield at the start of a fight, this guy's working with a 24 AC. Significantly less than Mage A, but he has more spells per day, higher DCs, and 3 of his damage spells each day are EXTREMELY powerful.

Still not seeing the problem.