Eliminating "Raise Dead" and "Resurrection"

[Dragonblade]

I don't think removing resurection unbalances the game. As long as you tell your players ahead of time that those are the rules, then it's fine. I have never allowed it in my games, and haven't seen any balance issues. It does have an impact on the way the players handle their characters, in that they are *sometimes* a pinch more careful.

There are major balance issues with removing Raise Dead and Resurrection magic without any form of compensation. It completely changes the feel of a high level game. But the effect on a low-level game is minimal.

A lot of encounters and monsters, particularly high level ones, often involve situations or abilities that require multiple difficult saving throws with each failed save resulting in a severely debilitating condition or death.

The result is a D&D game that will burn through PCs like mad unless the DM or the players compensate. The DM can compensate by removing save or die situations from his game or requiring multiple failed saves for each bad effect instead of just one. This can require a lot of extra work on the DM's part to really "wimp" down the encounters.

The players can compensate by being extremely cautious and avoiding most encounters where they don't completely overwhelm their opponents. This tends to eliminate more heroic and cinematic play styles and encourages a more brutal world where watching out for numero uno takes precedence over any other moral or story considerations.

Now, if you wish to play a game where you as DM either: a) wussify everything b) discourage heroism c) make your players create new characters every session or d) never advance much beyond level 12, then by all means remove those spells from the game.

But, there is an alternative. I have also removed resurrection spells from my game to make death more meaningful. But I wanted PCs who were still heroic and who could kick ass and not fear dying from one failed save, yet who were cautious when they fought monsters because they still had all their nasty save or die abilities.

The solution was Fate points. Give every PC and major NPCs a certain number of Fate points. The number of Fate points you give can serve as a grittiness indicator with less Fate points resulting in a more brutal and gritty game and more Fate points resulting in a more heroic game. During play, one Fate point can be spent to completely ignore any one attack roll, failed saving throw, or other unavoidable death situation. Though maybe not without penalty.

For example, a Dark Knight crits you and takes you to -40 hp. You'd be dead but spend a Fate point to completely avoid the blow at the last second. Or a Beholder disintigrates you and you fail your save. Spend a Fate point and by some miracle you managed to twist your body out of the way at the last second. Or you are struggling near a precipice and are hurled over the edge. You take more than enough damage to die from the fall. Spend a Fate point and you miraculously survive but still have a broken leg or two.

Its DMs discretion what happens when a PC spends a Fate point, but it gives the PCs a chance against nasty monsters that would wipe them out in a world without Resurrection magic.

Additionally Fate points can have other effects as well, such as turning a missed blow into a hit, etc. This allows you to foster a more cinematic and literary style game that avoids complete dependence on random die rolls. Nothing is more anti-climactic than to fight the evil dark lord in his throne room after a long campaign and the PCs can't seem to roll anything other than natural 1s and get wiped out.

Also you as DM decide how PCs get more Fate points and how many they start playing with. Do they get them for certain heroic acts? Do they get them for good role-playing? Do they get one per level automatically? Use them and customize them for your game.

 

[Dragonblade]

In the game I play in the DM simply removed the raise dead spells, and so far it's workign out fine. I don't see any unbalancing aspects to it.

Then your DM is either fudging things behind the screen or you aren't playing a very high level game. I DM games of level 20+ and without Raise Dead and Resurrection spells powerful monsters like the Winter Wight can easily wipe out an entire party on the basis of just a few unlucky rolls.

I liked your idea of tying Raise Dead to plot developments but requiring higher XP costs, more money, etc. solves no balances issues. Its just a lesser form of banning. Why not ban the spell completely then?

Fate points are hands down the best solution. You can customize the grittiness level of your game and you don't have to fudge rolls or wussify encounters. And death actually means something.

 

[Wombat]

I guess part of my response is predicated on the fact that I dislike games where characters rise above, say, 14th level.

At that level it becomes too much like a bad video game for my taste. Personally I prefer lower-level campaigns.

Then again, given the guidelines for NPCs in cities, how many cities would even have a Cleric who could bring characters back to life?

Also I play at least as many games where there is no resurrection (Ars Magica, Pendragon, etc.) as D&D; I would play those games more often, but it is harder to organize a group, where D&D is a household name and therefore easy to grab people into.

 

[Norfleet]

I have a friend who came up with an innovating approach to "fate points": Bribery. Anytime a player wanted to have a die rerolled, he had to give the DM a quarter. Thus, the character remained alive as long as the player felt he was worth inserting a coin to continue. Very classically arcade-like system.

 

[Dragonblade]

I guess part of my response is predicated on the fact that I dislike games where characters rise above, say, 14th level.

At that level it becomes too much like a bad video game for my taste. Personally I prefer lower-level campaigns.

I used to feel kind of like that too. Until I realized that 95% of that videogame feel came from Raise Dead and Resurrection magic. Once I eliminated those spells, high level games became just as fun as low-level but with a lot more options and tactics at your command. Both as a DM and player.

I'll never DM a game under 10th level, and rarely play in one unless the DM is a genius and he/she has no problems with keeping the campaign going on into the epic levels.

 

[A'koss]

I'm in the midst of designing a campaign with a similar finality to death. I haven't yet decided what I want to do, but I have a couple of ideas that seemed to work well in the past.

Living off borrowed time.

This is an idea inspired by Babylon 5. You can be resurrected, but essentially you're living off a divine spark which will fade in time. Weaker resurrection magic may only grant you enough life to finish your adventure or tidy up your affairs and say your goodbyes. The most powerful magics may grant you a number of years equal to the caster level of the spell, but no more.

Conditional Resurrection

This is something I've been thinking about for my campaign... Your character can live up to: - Con in HP (as per AU). If your body is still relatively whole, you can cast a resurrection spell to "jump-start" it and recover without any permanent loses (which aren't fun for players anyway).

If your body has been reduced to: - 2x Con score, eg. a 10 Con character reduced to -20 or more hps, he must make a DC 15 Fort Save if resurrection magic is cast on him or remain dead forever.

If your body has been reduced to: - 3x Con score, eg. a 10 Con character reduced to -30 or more hps, he cannot be brought back to life. That is alllll she wrote.

This allows anyone to add finality to a kill with a little work, but still allows characters to retrieve fallen comrades and possibly revive them if they're not too badly damaged.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Living off borrowed time.

This is an idea inspired by Babylon 5. You can be resurrected, but essentially you're living off a divine spark which will fade in time. Weaker resurrection magic may only grant you enough life to finish your adventure or tidy up your affairs and say your goodbyes. The most powerful magics may grant you a number of years equal to the caster level of the spell, but no more.

Wow.

That is, bar none, the best "compromise" solution to the resurrection issue I've ever come across. And as huge a fan of B5 as I am, I'm ashamed I didn't think of it myself.

In many of my settings, I've banned resurrection spells entirely. In others--the ones where I want a higher magic feel--I keep them as they are in the books. But you can be certain that I will be stealing this idea for many, many of my future campaigns where neither of the above two options quite fits.

Kudos to you.

 

[jester47]

My campaign setting is FR with a heavy dose of Necromacer Games (the two work together surprisingly well IMO). Peripherally I add in some Green Ronin (Freeport) FFG (Traps and Treachery I & II) and a little bit of Atlas Games (Cities, Strongholds).

I have the players make extensive use of hirelings, cost of living, and really watch the encumberance rules WRT to treasure. This makes things more interesting and leads to all sorts of problems for the heroes to overcome because I am just as stingy with bags of holding as I am with "return to life" spells. Yes there is tons of treasure in Abysthor but can you carry all of it? Raise Dead is still a very expensive spell.

I dunno, it just seems to me that the very way the spells are described they are very difficult by nature to have cast. Plus there seems to be a very large area for the DM to say no in very creative ways. I do not see the point taking them out of the game when the DM can leave them in and just make the characters earn their trips back to life. And the spells offer a lot in the roleplaying aspect of the game.

Aaron.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by mouseferatu:
Wow.

That is, bar none, the best "compromise" solution to the resurrection issue I've ever come across. And as huge a fan of B5 as I am, I'm ashamed I didn't think of it myself.

Funny thing is, B-5 didn't grab me until the series was in it's last season and ended up having to catch the rest in re-runs... I couldn't really get into the pre-Sheridan stuff though.

In many of my settings, I've banned resurrection spells entirely. In others--the ones where I want a higher magic feel--I keep them as they are in the books. But you can be certain that I will be stealing this idea for many, many of my future campaigns where neither of the above two options quite fits.

Kudos to you.

Thanks! I've even been toying with (perhaps) combining the two methods, they're not mutually exclusive really. Perhaps I'll allow clerics to drink a draught of gods-blood (think Dune's Water of Life - very dangerous to use and you must use it quick or the power will destoy you) and use that power to augment their resurrection capability so they can bring back the "truly" dead (at least for a time).

We'll see...

 

[Nightfall]

I have to agree with Ari, Koss, that's a pretty invovative idea you have there. Almost makes me wish I had thought of it.