Eliminating "Raise Dead" and "Resurrection"

[Brennin Magalus]

I believe it should require a miracle (with the attendant 5000 XP cost) to raise a dead PC, no less.

 

[Dragonblade]

Re running high-level or Epic games without resurrection, it's not 'wussification' to not use every critter in the MM & ELH. In a gritty no-ressing world, it makes sense to have insta-kill monsters be very rare. If they are encountered, their CR may need upgrading to reflect the changed circumstances. You don't need a winter wight in every (epic) dungeon.

Sure, you don't have to use a lot of epic monsters, but even non epic monsters, like a Medusa or a Beholder can easily wipe out a party due to their save or die (or petrify) abilities.

You and everyone else in this thread keeps talking about ways to compensate by taking out Raise Dead and Resurrection. Either on the DM side of the screen (Raising CRs for monsters with insta-kill powers, making them super rare, etc.) or on the player side of the screen (granting them extra hitpoints or coming up with some new way to have resurrection but not call it resurrection).

And those are all good methods. My original point was that taking out Raise Dead and Resurrection forces you to compensate in some way or it changes the feel of the game, especially high level games. Now if you want to change the feel of the game, then more power to you. If you want to use a different creative way of having Resurrection magic, weaken monsters, or make them rarer, then more power to you too.

I have just found that a Fate point system allows you to play by-the-book D&D with almost no change other than the fact that death is much more permanent. The videogame feel of Resurrection is gone but I can still use almost all PrC's, spells, monsters, published adventures, etc. with no change or editing necessary to fit in my non-Resurrection magic world.

 

[Dragonblade]

I argue against Hero/Fate Points. I used them in my last campaign. The players liked them at first, but in the big final battle, the last complaint was, "I'm not winning the fight. I'm only alive because of my Fate Points, and I'm using three of those per turn." It ended up feeling as though I made the fight too difficult and then added Fate points to compensate -- so it was my mechanic, not the players, who won the game. Other people could probably do it better than I did, but it's always going to be a concern.

So, if all else is equal and you didn't have Fate points, how would the battle have gone any differently?

The players would have died anyway. Only it would have been the "dice" that killed them, right? Or they still would have blamed you as a DM.

Hmm, sounds like they took on a foe that was beyond them and then started to whine and complain because the battle didn't go their way.

 

[shadow]

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions! After some consideration, I've decided to eliminate "save or die" type magic and effects, and add some type of hero point system. My question is now, what would be a good hero point system? I've thought about the system in d20 Modern, but do you have any other ideas? How should hero points be earned? What should there effect be when spent?

 

[S'mon]

And those are all good methods. My original point was that taking out Raise Dead and Resurrection forces you to compensate in some way or it changes the feel of the game, especially high level games.

I'm not a big fan of Monte Cook-style high level 3e D&D, where every NPC seems to have 8 templates and every scenario is a meatgrinder. When I ran high (deity) level 1e-2e games, significant combats were rare and typically involved a good chance of death on either side. Both sides would typically take steps to ensure the losers couldn't be raised. I never much enjoyed level 15+ dungeon crawls, AIR. I plan to run EGG's Necropolis soon though, so I'll see how that works out.

 

[S'mon]

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions! After some consideration, I've decided to eliminate "save or die" type magic and effects, and add some type of hero point system. My question is now, what would be a good hero point system? I've thought about the system in d20 Modern, but do you have any other ideas? How should hero points be earned? What should there effect be when spent?

I like the WHFRP Fate points, where the effect seems entirely up to GM fiat. IMO they are best used to keep a PC alive who would have otherwise died by the rules, without giving them a cheap victory. Eg a PC in combat takes damage sufficient to kill him. He spends an FP and the blow clips his skull, knocking him unconscious. He wakes up hours later at 1hp. If his side won, he may be surrounded by his victorious allies. If they lost, he was left for dead on the battlefield, or captured by the enemy if the DM is feeling mean.

 

[Pbartender]

I always liked the Conan the Barbarian method...

Sure, you can resurrect your buddy... But you're going to have to fight for his soul, because those demons have a pretty good claim on it.

 

[Kesh]

Another possibility is making consequences for ressurection.

In one of the homebrew worlds I've designed, the gods of Life and Death came to an agreement: for every mortal resurrected by the godess of Life, the god of Death would be allowed to create an equally powerful undead abomination in the world.

Thus, a 12th level PC being res'ed would also create a CR 12 undead beast somewhere in the world. The PCs would be responsible for bringing an evil into the world. And it's unlikely they can find & destroy it before it kills someone else.

 

[Trickstergod]

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions! After some consideration, I've decided to eliminate "save or die" type magic and effects, and add some type of hero point system. My question is now, what would be a good hero point system? I've thought about the system in d20 Modern, but do you have any other ideas? How should hero points be earned? What should there effect be when spent?

Well, you could have a player earn "hero points" every time they do something heroic, that could very well end up in them being killed - and they survive through it. Such as, say, standing in the doorway until all your friends have escaped through the portal behind you, holding off a legion of orcs, or a Death Knight, in the mean time, then destroying the portal as the intrepid hero leaps through. Something that's not necessarily stupid, but still has a strong likelihood for the person to die. In the players mind, at least - perhaps the Death Knight is nothing more than an illusion, or there's really only one orc surrounded by hundreds of illusions - but if the player doesn't realize that, it's still worth the reward. Conversely, if a player doesn't realize he's fighting a 17th level Lich that looks like a simple peasant due to change self, then no hero point is awarded - it should only apply when the player thinks this very well might be the end.

As for the effect, one could possibly use them to automatically succeed at a saving throw, even after it's been rolled and failed, or to perform maximum damage on one attack, automatically threaten a critical, etc, etc. Something suitably impressive, considering the character had to put its life on the line to earn that point in the first place. And, when a hero point is used during an encounter, one cannot be gained during that encounter, either - the odds were swung too far in the characters favor because of it.

Just some thoughts.

 

[hong]

Well, you could have a player earn "hero points" every time they do something heroic, that could very well end up in them being killed - and they survive through it. Such as, say, standing in the doorway until all your friends have escaped through the portal behind you, holding off a legion of orcs, or a Death Knight, in the mean time, then destroying the portal as the intrepid hero leaps through. Something that's not necessarily stupid, but still has a strong likelihood for the person to die. In the players mind, at least - perhaps the Death Knight is nothing more than an illusion, or there's really only one orc surrounded by hundreds of illusions - but if the player doesn't realize that, it's still worth the reward. Conversely, if a player doesn't realize he's fighting a 17th level Lich that looks like a simple peasant due to change self, then no hero point is awarded - it should only apply when the player thinks this very well might be the end.

As for the effect, one could possibly use them to automatically succeed at a saving throw, even after it's been rolled and failed, or to perform maximum damage on one attack, automatically threaten a critical, etc, etc. Something suitably impressive, considering the character had to put its life on the line to earn that point in the first place. And, when a hero point is used during an encounter, one cannot be gained during that encounter, either - the odds were swung too far in the characters favor because of it.

Just some thoughts.

I'm using hero points IMC. They work very much like what you describe.

See previous thread on this subject, here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58637