Elves - Love em or Hate em?

[Mercule]

For that matter, how does anyone know if a dwarf is going to behave very differently from a human?

Quite simple, actually. Fiat. As I said before -- I see no point in having non-human humanoids who act/think like humans. It's the old Star Trek "aliens are just humans with nose/forehead/ear ridges/dimples/spots" shtick.

 

[Felon]

And that 3e makes them not too appealing, mechanically.

Well, if the DM allows elven subraces from the Monster Manual to be played, they get a boost. You actually get an elf that gets an Int bonus, giving them a trait that actually makes for a good wizard.

Likewise, the wood elf has a favored class of ranger, and decent modifiers for that class.

On an odd note, the Monster Manual says that the PHB elf is the high elf, the most common kind. Seems kind of bizarre to say that the most commonplace, mundane elf is the one that's labeled as the elite.

 

[Orius]

I've made 1 elf sub-race, the Wrathan, inspired by the elves from Chris Claremont's Shadow Wars series (I think they appeared in Shadow Dawn.) Tall, alien-looking, wielding crystal weapons and riding carnivorous horse-velociraptor crossbreeds. Plus, they have a tremendous chip on their shoulder. Nothing like the namby-pamby elves we usually see!!!

I agree with you there. Even though the Shadow War trilogy is a pain to read, it makes a pretty good story if one can get through it, and it presents elves in a way that isn't quite so cliche. They can be totally cruel and badass. The dwarves of that setting, the Rock Nelwyns, however are pretty typical dwarves, ie, they live in the mountains, mine and forge steel, etc.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Not to hijack this thread, by why all the dwarf mechanical hate? Granted, a Dwarf is the ONLY race I haven't played in 3.5 core, so I'm not intimately familiar with them, but still, I never thought they were that great.

My argument has always been that if you don't have a problem with the warforged, you can't have a problem with the dwarves.

Dwarves make the best heavy warriors in the core game (arguably). They are like a tricked out fighter right out of the gate.

IMHO, that's not a bad thing. It's like saying halflings are overpowered because OMG LOOK AT THAT HIDE SCORE WTF WHY NOT MAKE THEM INVISIBLE?!

They're good at something. Their weaknesses will have to be shored up by other members of the party. They're not immune to things.

Like some other races, they are not drastically overbalanced. But for anyone already considering being a fighter, they are a very good choice. Likewise, for anyone considering being a sneaky rogue, halflings are a very good choice.

 

[Dark Jezter]

I hate elves. I hate literary demigod elves that are better than every other race in every way, and my hate of D&D elves is mainly due to the fact that most of the irritating and obnoxious people I've gamed with over the years were elf fanboys who insisted that elves should be the best at everything (this has become even more common following the LotR movies with the rapid-firing, shield-surfing, oliphaunt-wasting Legolas).

Man, I wish Forrester were still around to see this thread. His elf rant still brings a smiled to my face when I think about it (too bad that, following the forum deletion a while ago, the rant no longer seems to exist anywhere online).

 

[Aaron L]

I love elves. Something about them just strikes a deep resonance with me. Now, Im not saying I like the fanboyish "elves can do no wrong and are better at everything than everyone else" ideas. I like Tolkeinesque elves, to a point. I like them when they have both thier strengths and thier weaknesses recognized. I like the idea of them as the Elder Race, highly magical, gifted in the arts and creativity, and such. But I also like thier weaknesses recognized, and thier alienness, and do not like them portrayed as (which has been nicely labelled here) humans++. I like Forgotten Realms elves a great deal, they clearly have great weaknesses; arrogance (snobbery is a weakness, and dont you forget it!) and pride, and many of thier strengths can be weaknesses depending on the situation. (look at all of the elven civilizations, the chaos that defines thier societies and lends them strenght also leads to thier eventual downfalls)

So, uh, yeah... I like elves. My favorite race (besides humans of course.)

 

[Staffan]

I don't hope so. But alas, my hopes are in vain. See the Mul. They're from Dark Sun, half human, half dwarf, magically bred. Read about them, and about what happens to the human mother at birth.

Mul are bred the old-fashioned way in the slave pits. Usually the owners choose a human father and a dwarven mother, because a dwarven mother is more likely to survive the birth (no point in wasting a perfectly good slave, after all).

As for magical breeding, you might be thinking about half-giants who were created some time in the distant past by combining humans and giants. In the current day, half-giants are created from the mating of two half-giants, not by a human and a giant.

/Staffan, Dark Sun expert.

 

[iwatt]

I am a fan of stumpy dwarves meself: +2 con, -2 dex. That would about fix dwarves IMO.

This I agree wholeheartedly (sp?) with. It makes them the mirror to elves.

I really like (and use this concept).


And about subraces: I hate them. Doesn't matter if dwarf/elf/halfling/gnome/orc etc...
If it was just about the cultural aspects (skill bonuses, favored class, etc...) I wouldn't have an issue with them. But to physically differentiate them seems just too munchkinny.



Thankfully they haven't done it with humans (i.e Vikings verus desert dwellers).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

And about subraces: I hate them. Doesn't matter if dwarf/elf/halfling/gnome/orc etc...
If it was just about the cultural aspects (skill bonuses, favored class, etc...) I wouldn't have an issue with them. But to physically differentiate them seems just too munchkinny.

So black bears and brown bears should be the same stat-wise?

Thankfully they haven't done it with humans (i.e Vikings verus desert dwellers).

In fact, they did, just not in core D&D. Midnight, for example, has three different human subraces.

 

[James Heard]

Oh, I hate dwarves and elves. Perversely though, I like to play gnomes - because so many people detest them. Perpetually in my homebrew I'm killing off everything but humans and "monsters" though, including the gnomes, just because if someone wants to wear a beard or tight pants there's plenty of room in humanity for that without mechanical differences or pointy ears and poison resistance.