Elves - Love em or Hate em?

[was]

I don't love them or hate them. They're just another racial group with their own flaws and perks. I never have understood the constant bickering over them. I've heard the same argument since 2nd ed. when many believed elves were too powerful and dwarves were somehow slighted by that.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I'm mostly disinterested in elves--although as stated above, Eberron has made them somewhat interesting again.

EDIT: As has Iron Kingdoms for that matter...

I don't suppose anyone would like to summarize what IK has done with Elves for those of us without the book?

Myself, I see no reason to have non-human humanoids if they don't actually have different psychologies.

Give that man a cookie!

That's where most problems with Elves in D&D come in, IME. As has been said, many people don't think of them as "Elves." They think of them as "humans, but cooler." Of course, the same people who do that usually make their Dwarves "short, angry humans who make stuff."

My hat of lack of imagination know no limit.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I've heard the same argument since 2nd ed. when many believed elves were too powerful and dwarves were somehow slighted by that.

Yes. Many people were annoyed by elves because of the 2e elves being so damn powerful and those poor dwarves can't win. Now, we have decent elves and ludicrously overpowered dwarves, but people still bash elves and put little statues for dwarves in their garden (and try to disguise this dwarf worship by calling them "gnomes").

 

[Kae'Yoss]

That's where most problems with Elves in D&D come in, IME. As has been said, many people don't think of them as "Elves." They think of them as "humans, but cooler." Of course, the same people who do that usually make their Dwarves "short, angry humans who make stuff."

My hat of lack of imagination know no limit.

The tragic thing about it is that I knew quite a lot of players who played dwarves, and they were the "short angry humans who want gold" kind of dwarves, while I saw many people play elves and do a good job.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Depends on how much you subscribe to the notion of dwarves having an actually alien mindset, rather than being stocky, bearded humans.

Myself, I see no reason to have non-human humanoids if they don't actually have different psychologies.

Still, there are different dwarves with different mindsets (even if none match humans). They're not all going to be lawful.

 

[Mercule]

Still, there are different dwarves with different mindsets (even if none match humans). They're not all going to be lawful.

Oh, right. I was just saying that a berserking dwarf doesn't make sense as a "classic archetype" in D&D, with them being Lawful and all. Also, a berserking dwarf would be seen as even more nuts by his kin than a berserking human is (and that's quite nuts).

I wasn't arguing categorically against the incidence, just against it being normative.

 

[SG1Laura]

and even the Cha 6 ranger elf is supposed to be better looking than the Cha 18 human paladin.

Hilarious

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Oh, right. I was just saying that a berserking dwarf doesn't make sense as a "classic archetype" in D&D, with them being Lawful and all. Also, a berserking dwarf would be seen as even more nuts by his kin than a berserking human is (and that's quite nuts).

I wasn't arguing categorically against the incidence, just against it being normative.

Well, said dwarves show up in fiction often enough (the authors don't read the rules, or something), and the MM doesn't say "always lawful" when it comes to dwarves. There could easily be multiple dwarven cultures, where order is adhered to by the majority in most of the cultures, while chaos predominates in the minority of cultures.

For that matter, how does anyone know if a dwarf is going to behave very differently from a human? There's nothing in the PH that I noticed that goes into detail about roleplaying elves or dwarves, for instance (and anything it or Races of Stone says about gnomes just makes them worse), so I turn to the DnD fiction, and I think some players do, too. That fiction often seems to insult dwarves and exalt elves, unfortunately. (And once again, the authors ignore the rules - +2 Dex doesn't mean you never get hit!)

and even the Cha 6 ranger elf is supposed to be better looking than the Cha 18 human paladin.

Reminds me of Palladium. (In that system, elves get bonuses to Physical Beauty but reductions to Mental Affinity - their version of Charisma.)

 

[Kanegrundar]

I don't really care one way or the other. They are alright when played well, but otherwise are either boring or uninteresting.

The only thing I despise about elves is in every other book that comes out offers a new elven sub-race. Jeesh, do we really need Tar and Cotton Candy elves for the love of Pete?!?!?!?

I've made 1 elf sub-race, the Wrathan, inspired by the elves from Chris Claremont's Shadow Wars series (I think they appeared in Shadow Dawn.) Tall, alien-looking, wielding crystal weapons and riding carnivorous horse-velociraptor crossbreeds. Plus, they have a tremendous chip on their shoulder. Nothing like the namby-pamby elves we usually see!!!

Kane

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The only thing I despise about elves is in every other book that comes out offers a new elven sub-race.

I want to point out that dwarves aren't much better in that regard. And that races of stone had extra dwarves while races of the wild didn't have another elf.