D&D 5E Epic Level 1?!

[Fanaelialae]

the part I find funny about the treadmill complain (and as always goes back to 4e bashing) all I hear is "If you go out of your way to make the game fun your doing it wrong"

Despite it being a common complaint, I also disagree that 4e was a treadmill. Gameplay did change significantly as characters gained levels (and new capabilities), though it might not have seemed like it would based on a read through. High levels felt different from low levels. IMO, that's not a treadmill.

 

[payn]

I don't know. I had such problems with PF1 the time I tried that I am not looking back for 2e. I do wish alchemist magus and other new classes from PF 1 had influenced 5e classes though

You should give PF2 a gander. Its nothing like PF1, much closer to 4E. (Not a 4E clone tho either)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Despite it being a common complaint, I also disagree that 4e was a treadmill. Gameplay did change significantly as characters gained levels (and new capabilities), though it might not have seemed like it would based on a read through. High levels felt different from low levels. IMO, that's not a treadmill.

yeah, I mean just the getting of new powers in my mind makes it not a treadmill. every level (or almost) you got a new toy to play with and often it opened up new ways to effect the game the world the encounter the narrative or some mixture of the 4.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Change all the options into numbers, and yeah its just a treadmill. You just go from living in your moms basement to having your own home. Clearly, there is a difference, but in the grand scheme of things its all the same.

But it's not just numbers. Simulacrum isn't a number, it literally allows you to be in two places at once, if you desire. True Polymorph isn't a number, it literally lets you take anything and turn it into anything else. Mirage Arcane isn't just a number, it literally allows you to reshape the land around you according to your whims.

I mean, sure, if you only look at the damage spells, then all it is is bigger numbers. However, that's an argument with some pretty gargantuan blinders on it.

 

[overgeeked]

A treadmill is when you put in effort but effectively go nowhere.

Sigh. And that's true. You are effectively going nowhere. Your regular opposition, the on-level threats you face, will always be on par with your PC. All those stat blocks, all those numbers, all those spells...they just cover up the fact that it still takes about the same amount of hits to down a monster that's your level...no matter what level you are. Up until you get to the god-tier stuff like forcecage and wish, which are ridiculous in and of themselves, but again...you're then facing monsters who have access to those spells as well. Funny that.

 

[overgeeked]

the part I find funny about the treadmill complain (and as always goes back to 4e bashing) all I hear is "If you go out of your way to make the game fun your doing it wrong"

I'm the one who brought up the treadmill. I'm not bashing 4E. It is the best edition of the game WotC has put out.

 

[payn]

But it's not just numbers. Simulacrum isn't a number, it literally allows you to be in two places at once, if you desire. True Polymorph isn't a number, it literally lets you take anything and turn it into anything else. Mirage Arcane isn't just a number, it literally allows you to reshape the land around you according to your whims.

I mean, sure, if you only look at the damage spells, then all it is is bigger numbers. However, that's an argument with some pretty gargantuan blinders on it.

All the encounters have scaling DCs and NPCs have scaling AC, HP, saves, etc... Sure, you got more than one room to live in now, but its still just a place to live.

Also, I'm not advocating that adding +1 or +1/2 per level to your scores is a bad thing. I just think its an unnecessary thing and am actually a bigger fan of bounded accuracy. I can still gain new spells and wizabangs and the numbers dont have to increase to make me feel that.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sigh. And that's true. You are effectively going nowhere. Your regular opposition, the on-level threats you face, will always be on par with your PC. All those stat blocks, all those numbers, all those spells...they just cover up the fact that it still takes about the same amount of hits to down a monster that's your level...no matter what level you are. Up until you get to the god-tier stuff like forcecage and wish, which are ridiculous in and of themselves, but again...you're then facing monsters who have access to those spells as well. Funny that.

I'll grant that if your campaign is focused on the number of hits that it takes to drop a monster, then the game might indeed look like a treadmill.

 

[overgeeked]

But it's not just numbers. Simulacrum isn't a number, it literally allows you to be in two places at once, if you desire. True Polymorph isn't a number, it literally lets you take anything and turn it into anything else. Mirage Arcane isn't just a number, it literally allows you to reshape the land around you according to your whims.

The phrase you're looking for is fictional positioning.

I mean, sure, if you only look at the damage spells, then all it is is bigger numbers. However, that's an argument with some pretty gargantuan blinders on it.

Not really. It's part of the equation. Ignoring the numbers is arguing with gargantuan blinders on.

I'll grant that if your campaign is focused on the number of hits that it takes to drop a monster, then the game might indeed look like a treadmill.

Even in games where you don't, it's still a treadmill. The only real difference between a goblin and a giant is the fictional wrapper you put around it. You could just as easily use E1 and the same stat block (with minor variations) to cover every monster in the game, just change what you call them and how they fight. It would be the same as it is now only you'd save a lot of time and space.

 

[d24454_modern]

Personally, I like to have fairly static levels for NPCs in my campaign.

40% of the NPCs are between Levels 1-8.

30% are Levels 9-14.

20% are Levels 15-18.

10% are Levels 19-20.

The NPCs being static allows for the players to get a better measure of their place in the setting.