D&D 5E Epic Level 1?!

at 1st level my fighter hits hard, and has a few tricks up his sleave... at level 3 I get a brand new trick, like nothing I have done before, and level 5 I get a once a day can change the course of an entire encounter ability (at 2nd and 4th I got minor new things) at 7th I get a new ability that lets me deal damage to all adjacent enemies as I become a whirling blade, and 9th level I learn to issue a call that challanges all enemies in 30ft, and if they don't have a strong enough will they charge me and I get an attack on them for them doing so (and I can do that with the aura up that hits all adjacent foes).

but I added 1/2 level to my stuff so I am +4 higher to hit and defence and an equal level (even though the game does sugges lev-2 -lv+3 encounters) threat that is teh same type (remember subtypes of enemies) will have the same chance to hit me or me hit them... so treadmill one where I get cool new toys as your run on it
 

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10% are Levels 19-20.
1 in 10 people your PCs run into are 19+ level even at level 1!?! what... man I guess that barmaide was once an adventurer until she retired to serve drinks... I will admit I would not mess with your town guard... even at 20th level with 5 epic boons and 3 artifacts a town guard of 25 NPCs will have 2-3 19+ character that may be able to wish me dead...
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
at 1st level my fighter hits hard, and has a few tricks up his sleave... at level 3 I get a brand new trick, like nothing I have done before, and level 5 I get a once a day can change the course of an entire encounter ability (at 2nd and 4th I got minor new things) at 7th I get a new ability that lets me deal damage to all adjacent enemies as I become a whirling blade, and 9th level I learn to issue a call that challanges all enemies in 30ft, and if they don't have a strong enough will they charge me and I get an attack on them for them doing so (and I can do that with the aura up that hits all adjacent foes).

but I added 1/2 level to my stuff so I am +4 higher to hit and defence and an equal level (even though the game does sugges lev-2 -lv+3 encounters) threat that is teh same type (remember subtypes of enemies) will have the same chance to hit me or me hit them... so treadmill one where I get cool new toys as your run on it
Exactly. So skip the treadmill and go straight to handing out the toys.

If you don't need to worry about your numbers going up, because the monsters' numbers don't go up, you can just get that cool new trick added to your arsenal. You "level up" and "progress" by getting the stuff, but skip the pointless treadmill of numbers bloat.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
The phrase you're looking for is fictional positioning.

Not really. It's part of the equation. Ignoring the numbers is arguing with gargantuan blinders on.

Even in games where you don't, it's still a treadmill. The only real difference between a goblin and a giant is the fictional wrapper you put around it. You could just as easily use E1 and the same stat block (with minor variations) to cover every monster in the game, just change what you call them and how they fight. It would be the same as it is now only you'd save a lot of time and space.
If you want to argue that the combat mini game is a treadmill, then as I said, I could see that argument. I'm not convinced that it's actually accurate, since high level characters gain combat capabilities that low level characters can only dream of which can significantly change the nature of combat. But I can see the basis for the argument.

Combat isn't the game though. It's part of the game, but far from the entirety of it. Maybe 40-50% in total in my group.

Let me try to put it another way. If you have low level supers with super strength and toughness, and high level supers with super duper strength and toughness, then you're likely dealing with a treadmill. They're doing the same things at low levels as high levels, just better.

If you have low level supers with super strength and toughness, and high level supers with all kinds of crazy abilities (flight, telekinesis, invisibility, telepathy, etc) you're likely not dealing with a treadmill. There's a variety present in this latter case that isn't present in the former, which will almost invariably lead to a difference in gameplay. It doesn't matter whether or not the numbers are also inflated. Numbers aren't the entirety of the game.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Personally, I like to have fairly static levels for NPCs in my campaign.

40% of the NPCs are between Levels 1-8.

30% are Levels 9-14.

20% are Levels 15-18.

10% are Levels 19-20.

The NPCs being static allows for the players to get a better measure of their place in the setting.
For the way I run things, it's closer to:

60% of the NPCs are level 0.

20% of the NPCs are level 1.

10% of the NPCs are level 2.

5% of the NPCs are level 3.

And on down to maybe one level 20 NPC exists in the entire world. If that.
 

Exactly. So skip the treadmill and go straight to handing out the toys.
what you call a treadmill I prefer to have levels matter... for heroic (1-10 in 4e) you had +0-+5 a 9th level PC and a 2nd level PC could hit similar ACs and have similar ACs BUT not the same something is EASIER at 9th then it is at 2nd, the same idea at level 14 (into pargaon) now you are at +7 higher then you would be at 1st leve... making you 35% more likely to get it, and at level 29 or 30 you are at +15... you are every other level unlocking 5% more skill/ease.

just reighn in the HPs
If you don't need to worry about your numbers going up, because the monsters' numbers don't go up, you can just get that cool new trick added to your arsenal. You "level up" and "progress" by getting the stuff, but skip the pointless treadmill of numbers bloat.
except why is a 1st level character fighting a goblin with 15 AC not better at level 11 when they fight that goblin with a 15 AC?

in 5e a 15 AC goblin is a 15 AC goblin and that +4 to hit against your AC 16 is a 12 or better to hit
at level 12 your prof went from 2 to 4 so you have +2 more to hit but no bonus to AC... so you hit 10% more often but get hit the same amount.

in 4e a 15 AC goblin is a 15 AC goblin +4 to hi against your AC 16 at level 1 is not hitting anywhere near as well at level 12 when you have a 22AC (You have learned over 12 levels to avoid little goblins) and your bonus to hit went up 6 as well so you are 30% more likely to hit him
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
If you want to argue that the combat mini game is a treadmill, then as I said, I could see that argument. I'm not convinced that it's actually accurate, since high level characters gain combat capabilities that low level characters can only dream of which can significantly change the nature of combat. But I can see the basis for the argument.
Some do, most don't. They mostly gain different fictional positioning. The monk hits more often, for more damage, can snatch missiles out of the air, and run up walls. The combat stuff is the focus of the classes (and the game, as you admit below) and the non-combat stuff is mostly fictional positioning...which only matters if the DM runs a game where that fictional positioning actually matters. Like someone with the Outlander background in a city-based urban campaign. Sorry. Tough luck.
Combat isn't the game though. It's part of the game, but far from the entirety of it. Maybe 40-50% in total in my group.
Right. One of three "equal" pillars of play takes up 40-50% of your game. Seems like even if it isn't "the whole game" it's clearly a very big defining feature of the game. This is further supported by the fact that non-combat stuff is basically non-existent outside of the odd spell for shenanigans.
Let me try to put it another way. If you have low level supers with super strength and toughness, and high level supers with super duper strength and toughness, then you're likely dealing with a treadmill. They're doing the same things at low levels as high levels, just better.
Which is what the vast majority of D&D presents. More of the same and bigger numbers...with the occasional actually new thing. They're mostly simple gradations of improvement on a concept. You like throwing fire on people from far away, we have dozens of variations of throwing fire on people from far away. Throw a small fire on one person at a time. Throw a slightly bigger fire on one person at a time. Now throw a slightly bigger fire on one person at a time. The progress is staggering.

Yes, forcecage and polymorph. Those are fictional wrappers for "neutralize the enemy without killing them". They're just more or less advanced. More or less easy to resist...and since the enemies' resistances increase as your ability to inflict unwanted conditions on enemies...you're on the treadmill. Your numerical position relative to the on-level enemies doesn't really change. It's smoke and mirrors. You every so occasionally get a new trick, but that's it. All I'm saying is you can skip the treadmill and go straight to the new tricks.
If you have low level supers with super strength and toughness, and high level supers with all kinds of crazy abilities (flight, telekinesis, invisibility, telepathy, etc) you're likely not dealing with a treadmill.
If the baddies advance to match the heroes...that's a treadmill. Batman punches bank robbers. Superman punches gods. The difference is fictional positioning. The DM lets Superman throw mountains, the DM restricts Batman to throwing batarangs...and fits when the stock market crashes. You don't need set numbers to represent the differences in strength between them.
There's a variety present in this latter case that isn't present in the former, which will almost invariably lead to a difference in gameplay. It doesn't matter whether or not the numbers are also inflated. Numbers aren't the entirety of the game.
Tell that to the majority of players and designers. They seem to be completely enraptured with the numbers and that seems to be all that matters to most of them.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
what you call a treadmill I prefer to have levels matter... for heroic (1-10 in 4e) you had +0-+5 a 9th level PC and a 2nd level PC could hit similar ACs and have similar ACs BUT not the same something is EASIER at 9th then it is at 2nd, the same idea at level 14 (into pargaon) now you are at +7 higher then you would be at 1st leve... making you 35% more likely to get it, and at level 29 or 30 you are at +15... you are every other level unlocking 5% more skill/ease.

just reighn in the HPs
I haven't really played or run 4E in a decade. I don't remember enough about it.
except why is a 1st level character fighting a goblin with 15 AC not better at level 11 when they fight that goblin with a 15 AC?

in 5e a 15 AC goblin is a 15 AC goblin and that +4 to hit against your AC 16 is a 12 or better to hit at level 12 your prof went from 2 to 4 so you have +2 more to hit but no bonus to AC... so you hit 10% more often but get hit the same amount.

in 4e a 15 AC goblin is a 15 AC goblin +4 to hi against your AC 16 at level 1 is not hitting anywhere near as well at level 12 when you have a 22AC (You have learned over 12 levels to avoid little goblins) and your bonus to hit went up 6 as well so you are 30% more likely to hit him
All you have to do is change that 1st-level goblin to an 11th-level giant. The numbers don't matter. The DM can just as easily give you advantage when facing off against a weaker opponent and disadvantage when facing off against a tougher opponent. All that matters is your relative strengths and weaknesses when compared to the monsters. You don't need 500 pages of monsters at every CR.
 

I haven't really played or run 4E in a decade. I don't remember enough about it.

All you have to do is change that 1st-level goblin to an 11th-level giant.
and when you change a 1st level anything to an 11th level anything that is a 10 level change... and a goblin to a giant is a pretty big change too. what I am showing with the 1st level goblin is that you are NOT on a treadmill you are advancing...

now some advice was badly written and the treadmill may have been incouraged (WotC felt a 1st level goblin should never be faced by a 12th level PC) but it still isn't a treadmill becuse you are going after a range still... controlers and soldiers had diffrent stats even at the same level, and again level +/- 3 or 4 was encouraged... so at 12th level you could run into a 9th level -15th level threat and at 1st you run into 1st-4th level threats... but you still are not on a treadmill the 15th level threat is MUCH deadlier then teh 4th
The numbers don't matter. The DM can just as easily give you advantage when facing off against a weaker opponent and disadvantage when facing off against a tougher opponent.
and we can give out will power pts that you can spend to give auto successes and refill when you play your character flaws (wod) but that isn't the game we are talking about
All that matters is your relative strengths and weaknesses when compared to the monsters. You don't need 500 pages of monsters at every CR.
500 no, I would argue a basic MM should have 5-10 threats of each CR from 1/4 to 25. later the DM can home brew or you can buy additional MMs
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
and when you change a 1st level anything to an 11th level anything that is a 10 level change... and a goblin to a giant is a pretty big change too. what I am showing with the 1st level goblin is that you are NOT on a treadmill you are advancing...
And that's where the disagreement is. I don't think it's advancing. I think it's a treadmill. The only real difference is the fictional wrapper you put around the monster. Goblin or giant. Doesn't matter. You're still just as strong, comparatively, to whatever on-level threat you're facing. The numbers don't matter, they're the treadmill. What matters is the fiction. The fictional positioning. The world of the game. Not the numbers.
 

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