D&D 5E Epic Level 1?!

[GMforPowergamers]

And that's where the disagreement is. I don't think it's advancing. I think it's a treadmill.

and I don't think it's a treadmill... you get better. You can face an AC 20 at any level but doing so with a +0 prof and +3 str means you need a 17 to hit... doing so with a +6 prof and +5 str means you need a 6... that is an improvement.

The only real difference is the fictional wrapper you put around the monster. Goblin or giant. Doesn't matter.

dude what? you can't see the diffrence between a 3ft goblin and a 15ft giant?

You're still just as strong, comparatively, to whatever on-level threat you're facing.

and if you only handle on level threats (even 4e didn't say to only throw level 12s after level 12 parties but a range of -3 or 4 for to +3 or 4... and it wasn't just numbers going up it was powers and abilities)

The numbers don't matter, they're the treadmill.

the numbers matter it is a game of numbers

What matters is the fiction. The fictional positioning. The world of the game. Not the numbers.

in the world of the game a goblin with a 15 AC is VERY different then a Giant with a 22

 

[Fanaelialae]

Some do, most don't. They mostly gain different fictional positioning. The monk hits more often, for more damage, can snatch missiles out of the air, and run up walls. The combat stuff is the focus of the classes (and the game, as you admit below) and the non-combat stuff is mostly fictional positioning...which only matters if the DM runs a game where that fictional positioning actually matters. Like someone with the Outlander background in a city-based urban campaign. Sorry. Tough luck.

Right. One of three "equal" pillars of play takes up 40-50% of your game. Seems like even if it isn't "the whole game" it's clearly a very big defining feature of the game. This is further supported by the fact that non-combat stuff is basically non-existent outside of the odd spell for shenanigans.

Which is what the vast majority of D&D presents. More of the same and bigger numbers...with the occasional actually new thing. They're mostly simple gradations of improvement on a concept. You like throwing fire on people from far away, we have dozens of variations of throwing fire on people from far away. Throw a small fire on one person at a time. Throw a slightly bigger fire on one person at a time. Now throw a slightly bigger fire on one person at a time. The progress is staggering.

Yes, forcecage and polymorph. Those are fictional wrappers for "neutralize the enemy without killing them". They're just more or less advanced. More or less easy to resist...and since the enemies' resistances increase as your ability to inflict unwanted conditions on enemies...you're on the treadmill. Your numerical position relative to the on-level enemies doesn't really change. It's smoke and mirrors. You every so occasionally get a new trick, but that's it. All I'm saying is you can skip the treadmill and go straight to the new tricks.

If the baddies advance to match the heroes...that's a treadmill. Batman punches bank robbers. Superman punches gods. The difference is fictional positioning. The DM lets Superman throw mountains, the DM restricts Batman to throwing batarangs...and fits when the stock market crashes. You don't need set numbers to represent the differences in strength between them.

Tell that to the majority of players and designers. They seem to be completely enraptured with the numbers and that seems to be all that matters to most of them.

Sure, if you only look at the numbers and then dismiss everything else as fictional positioning, then your argument for a treadmill is quite strong. Of course, most arguments supported by cherry picked evidence, where any evidence contrary to your argument is dismissed as insignificant, tend to be quite strong. So no surprise there.

If you ignore "fictional positioning", then you're on a treadmill irrespective of whether the numbers are static or they improve. The only way to get off the treadmill would be for the numbers to improve only for the PCs. However, I doubt that would make for an enjoyable game (20th level characters who have been fighting CR1 monsters their entire career). Or for high level play to not resemble low level play at all (domain management). Whereby you essentially aren't even playing the same game anymore (and have therefore transitioned to a new "treadmill").

A treadmill is generally considered a bad thing. However, I don't agree that most people seeing their character's numbers improve consider that a bad thing. I don't think that it detracts from the game.

If the designers use bigger numbers as a crutch to avoid granting interesting abilities, that would be a bad thing, but I think that 5e finds a fair balance between new capabilities and bigger numbers.

Granted, this is not spread evenly between classes, with caster classes getting a significantly greater portion thereof. I strongly believe that martials would significantly benefit from more cool features.

IMO, fictional positioning is what makes RPGs what they are. An argument claiming that a game is a treadmill that does not take into account fictional positioning is not useful (or accurate). Without fictional positioning, pretty much every game is a treadmill.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

. However, I doubt that would make for an enjoyable game (20th level characters who have been fighting CR1 monsters their entire career).

entire game systems have been written for this...

 

[ElPsyCongroo]

Probably need some examples of what you are looking for. Is this just the same as a leveled character, but you have 1st level hitpoints and your proficiency bonus is always +2?

If you still gain levels, than I don't see how this is like epic 6.

I meant as in still keeping that level of mortal peril, keeping you as just another amoung many striking out in the world, just with substantially less plot armor than you'd recieve in E6. You'd still level and gain experience, unlocking class features and such but HP would stay the same and a lot of the later damage numbers would be reduced in the spirit of being just another tool rather than an objectively better tool.

 

[Fanaelialae]

entire game systems have been written for this...

Fighting CR 1 monsters from level 1 to 20? Would you mind giving an example?

 

[overgeeked]

dude what? you can't see the diffrence between a 3ft goblin and a 15ft giant?

Fictionally, yes. The maths behind the fiction can be whatever we want. They're essentially arbitrary. They only matter in relation to other numbers. A +1 to-hit is meaningless in a vacuum.

the numbers matter it is a game of numbers

When the numbers on both sides of the screen go up...at about the exact same pace...they don't really matter. They're bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers.

in the world of the game a goblin with a 15 AC is VERY different then a Giant with a 22

In the world where your 1st-level fighter has a 35% chance to hit the goblin...and the same 35% chance to hit the giant at 5th level.

Sure, if you only look at the numbers and then dismiss everything else as fictional positioning, then your argument for a treadmill is quite strong. Of course, most arguments supported by cherry picked evidence, where any evidence contrary to your argument is dismissed as insignificant, tend to be quite strong. So no surprise there.

Besides the numbers and the fictional positioning (description, behavior, ecology, fighting style, etc), what's the difference between a goblin and a giant?

If you ignore "fictional positioning", then you're on a treadmill irrespective of whether the numbers are static or they improve. The only way to get off the treadmill would be for the numbers to improve only for the PCs.

Or to not bother using numbers at all.

Or for high level play to not resemble low level play at all (domain management). Whereby you essentially aren't even playing the same game anymore (and have therefore transitioned to a new "treadmill").

It's only a treadmill is all the numbers keep pace on both sides of the screen.

A treadmill is generally considered a bad thing.

Well, yeah. Because it generally is.

However, I don't agree that most people seeing their character's numbers improve consider that a bad thing.

Of course not. Most gamers just want bigger numbers. That's an end in and of itself. Big numbers good. Low numbers bad. Doesn't seem to matter what the context is. Give someone a +1 and they cheer. Doesn't matter that you're dealing with a 1d10,000 system and that +1 represents a fractional improvement.

I don't think that it detracts from the game.

It doesn't for you. It does for others.

If the designers use bigger numbers as a crutch to avoid granting interesting abilities, that would be a bad thing, but I think that 5e finds a fair balance between new capabilities and bigger numbers.

Cough. Except for most monsters. The monsters in 5E are notoriously big bags of boring hit points.

Granted, this is not spread evenly between classes, with caster classes getting a significantly greater portion thereof. I strongly believe that martials would significantly benefit from more cool features.

Absolutely. They need a lot to even be in the same league as casters.

IMO, fictional positioning is what makes RPGs what they are... Without fictional positioning, pretty much every game is a treadmill.

Weird how you completely agree with me and still manage to argue against yourself in a single post.

An argument claiming that a game is a treadmill that does not take into account fictional positioning is not useful (or accurate).

Note how I'm not discarding fictional positioning. Quite the opposite. I'm saying fictional positioning is infinitely more important than the numbers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

When the numbers on both sides of the screen go up...at about the exact same pace...they don't really matter. They're bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers.

and when numbers go up but you are not always facing your equal level threat?

that goblin is 15 the giant is 22... if you are facing both when you are level 7 (so level -5 goblins and level +4 giants)... then you need both.

In the world where your 1st-level fighter has a 35% chance to hit the goblin...and the same 35% chance to hit the giant at 5th level.

and it a world where a 1st level fighter has 45% chance to hit a goblin and a 10% chance to hit a giant, but a 7th level fighter has a 80% chance to hit the goblin and 45% chance to hit the giant, and an 11th level fighter has a 95% chance to hit the goblin and a 70% chance to hit the giant... your whole argument goes up in smoke

Besides the numbers and the fictional positioning (description, behavior, ecology, fighting style, etc), what's the difference between a goblin and a giant?

Or to not bother using numbers at all.

or you could have the numbers matter AND mean things

It's only a treadmill is all the numbers keep pace on both sides of the screen.

only if you only ever face 3rd level soldiers at 3rd level and 4th level soldiers at 4th level and 5th level soldiers at 5th level... I guess that would be boreing.

Of course not. Most gamers just want bigger numbers. That's an end in and of itself. Big numbers good. Low numbers bad. Doesn't seem to matter what the context is. Give someone a +1 and they cheer. Doesn't matter that you're dealing with a 1d10,000 system and that +1 represents a fractional improvement.

I mean only if it means you are getting better.

 

[dave2008]

When the numbers on both sides of the screen go up...at about the exact same pace...they don't really matter. They're bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers.

But that is not what happens, at least not how we play. My players are 15th level now and they still fight orcs and they really feel the numerical improvement when they do. The numbers don't just go up on the DM side.

In the world where your 1st-level fighter has a 35% chance to hit the goblin...and the same 35% chance to hit the giant at 5th level.

And what is the chance to hit for the 5th level fighter vs the goblin? That is the improvement and getting of the treadmill.

IMO, 4e and PF2e have the treadmill affect because they gave you multiple versions of the same monster. You had orcs at lvl 2, 5, & 10 (or whatever), just bigger numbers. That is not what 5e does (except dragons of course!).

Cough. Except for most monsters. The monsters in 5E are notoriously big bags of boring hit points.

That is a crutch argument. Many, if not most, 5e monsters have interesting things to do. I stand by the idea that legendary monsters are the best monster designs, generally, D&D has ever had. Beyond that, there a quite a lot of post MM monsters that are interesting. Even the MM has some interesting monsters, but they definitely improved after that book. Hope the '24 update improves that.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Level is how we keep score.

And E6 worked so well within the 3E framework just as a fluke of how 3E was built. Attempting to apply the same principles to other editions easily leads to difficulties that E6 really just didn't have to deal with - mostly by being able to simply supplant further experience level advancement and all that accompanied it with only added feats.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

IMO, 4e and PF2e have the treadmill affect because they gave you multiple versions of the same monster. You had orcs at lvl 2, 5, & 10 (or whatever), just bigger numbers. That is not what 5e does (except dragons of course!).

even those were not really treadmills.

at level 1 you would fight 2 level 2 orcs and 1 level 5 orc
at levels 2-7 you would continue in some version of more low level or double up the level 5.

around level 8 you could fight 16 (4x4) orc minions that were scaled to level 8 but one hit kill and had a simplfied version of that level 2 orc... so you were not treadmilling you went from a long drawn out battle against 2 level 2 and 1 level 5 that might even kill a PC to walking through 16 similar to that level 2 as if they were cardboard (1 hit 1 kill)
later at level 12 you might face 2 level 5 and 1 level 10 orc or you might face an elite level 12 orc with 18 of those level 8 minnions with them...

again it isn't a treadmill you got better. you are doing more. you are accomplishing more.