Epic Level Character Class Thoughts

[wolff96]

I wasn't sure where to start this thread, so if it belongs in D&D Rules or something, I would appreciate it if the Moderators would re-locate it.

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Just a few thoughts on the Epic Level Handbook progression for classes. Please feel free to add your own opinions. A verdict of "Good" indicates that I think the class grows in power approximately in line with the rise from the PHB. "Poor" means that power falls off in the epic levels. The others should be self-explanatory.

Barbarians -- With the number of new feats available to the Barbarian, he's going to be hard-pressed to decide which to get first. Almost all of them are great. Verdict: Good.

Bards -- Bards take a bit of a hit with the loss of new spell progression, though they have mostly the same magic options to them that the other casting classes do: Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, and Epic Spells. Their fighting combat continues to rise apace, though they'll always be stuck at three attacks a round before haste. Verdict: Slightly better than PHB.

Clerics -- The clerics, wizards, and sorcerers are all in the same boat. Most of their continued power comes from Epic Spellcasting or the new metamagic feats available to them. Clerics fare better than the other two "pure casters" due to the epic abilities for Turning/Rebuking. Verdict: Good.

Druids -- Druids are the most upgraded class within the Epic Level Handbook. With the errata'ed Wildshape from Masters of the Wild and all the new epic wildshaping feats, druids are some of the most powerful creatures of the epic world. After all, how many classes can change into a Collossal Dragon with a working breathweapon by level 27? Improved Elemental Wildshape also gives access to Primal Elemental forms, meaning that an elder druid is probably going to be the most potent creature on the block. Not to mention that the Epic Druid is still gaining more powerful animal friends and can choose to pursue Epic level spellcasting... Verdict: The real "Winner" of the ELH, Druids come out with some FEROCIOUS powers.

Fighter -- In a world where feats are power and bonus feats are your trick, the fighter is in hog heaven. With all the good fighter feats -- especially the fast healing and energy resistance feats, IMO -- the fighter really improves rapidly in power, quickly catching the spellcasters that left him behind near the end of the normal progression. Verdict: Slightly better than the PHB.

Monk -- The biggest problem a monk will have in the ELH is the same one the Barbarian has: Choosing among a variety of really great feats. With the continued improvements in speed, Ki Strike, and the other level-based skills the monk develops even more into the totally self-reliant creature. I especially like the ability to deflect spells and the like using Deflect Arrows. Verdict: Good.

Paladin/Ranger -- I'll admit it. I haven't looked too much into these classes. Anybody else want to take a look?

Rogue -- I have to say, I think the Rogue got it in the shorts with the Epic Level Handbook. The continued improvement of Sneak Attack dice and the Epic level skill uses are nice, but the Rogue is neutered in high level play. Almost every opponent will have SOMETHING by this point to stop sneak attacks. Fortification, Blur, Displacement, the list continues on. Furthermore, the rogue still can't sneak attack anything with a non-discernable anatomy. While that makes sense, it renders them impotent (even more so than before) because the disparity simply continues to grow between what any other melee-type can do to a sneak immune creature and what the rogue can accomplish. I was somewhat surprised by the lack of stealth-related epic feats as well. Verdict: The "loser" of the ELH. Definitely Poor.

Wizard/Sorcerer -- Competing with the Rogue for the losers of the ELH, the wizard and sorcerer see a significant fall off in power. Sorcerers especially simply don't have the feats to keep up in terms of Improved Spell Capacity and Improved Metamagic feats, not to mention the difficulties inherent in the Epic Spell System. What's more -- and the real problem with these two classes -- is the reliance on spells that are increasingly ineffective as their targets get better at avoiding magic. Between improved saving throws, epic-level resistance and save items, and the flat-out immunity given by feats or insanely high Spell Resistance the Sorc/Wiz is going to have real trouble contributing to the Epic Level world. Clerics and Druids have the same troubles with their magic, but they have a far larger arsenal of other tricks to fall back on. Verdict: Poor.

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So that's what I think... What do you think?

 

[bret]

Bards -- Bards take a bit of a hit with the loss of new spell progression, though they have mostly the same magic options to them that the other casting classes do: Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, and Epic Spells. Their fighting combat continues to rise apace, though they'll always be stuck at three attacks a round before haste. Verdict: Slightly better than PHB.

Don't you need to be able to cast 9th level spells before you can create Epic spells? Bard spell levels only normally go up to 6th level, meaning it would take quite a bit of work before they could do Epic magic.

One of the first things I noticed about some of the Epic stuff was the requirement to cast 9th level spells. Sort of leaves Bards, Rangers and Paladins in the lurch.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Epic Level Character Class Thoughts

Don't you need to be able to cast 9th level spells before you can create Epic spells? Bard spell levels only normally go up to 6th level, meaning it would take quite a bit of work before they could do Epic magic.

One of the first things I noticed about some of the Epic stuff was the requirement to cast 9th level spells. Sort of leaves Bards, Rangers and Paladins in the lurch.

Remember that the Improved Spell Capacity feat grants the user higher level spell slots. A Ranger, Paladin, or Bard who took the feat a few times would satisfy the 9th level spellcasting requirement to cast Epic Spells.

 

[the Jester]

The solution to the sneak attack problem

I agree about the rogue's problem with sneak attack, but there's an easy solution: give them feats that allow them to sneak attack despite concealment, as well as to sneak attack creatures with no discenible anatomy. I'd make each "type" immune to sneak attacks require its own feat (undead, oozes, etc).

How do you justify this? Well, for concealment, it's easy: the rogue has just gotten that good.

For undead: the extra damage is supernatural and involves a limited ability to channel positive energy.

For oozes: strike the nucleus!

For constructs: you don't necessarily destroy it completely with the extra damage, you just destroy enough of it that it can't hurt you any more. The iron golem can't attack without arms or legs, and if its mouth (or wherever the cloudkill pours out of) it smashed shut, it's out of options.

 

[bret]

Re: Re: Re: Epic Level Character Class Thoughts

Remember that the Improved Spell Capacity feat grants the user higher level spell slots. A Ranger, Paladin, or Bard who took the feat a few times would satisfy the 9th level spellcasting requirement to cast Epic Spells.

Needing to take a feat three times (for a Bard) or 5 times (Ranger or Paladin) would qualify as quite a bit of work.

What sort of level would those characters have to be in order to have gotten enough Epic feats to qualify?

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Level Character Class Thoughts

Needing to take a feat three times (for a Bard) or 5 times (Ranger or Paladin) would qualify as quite a bit of work.

What sort of level would those characters have to be in order to have gotten enough Epic feats to qualify?

A 29th level Ranger could take Epic Spellcasting, if he spent five feats on Improved Spell Capacity (its one of the Ranger bonus feats.) Fighter BAB and hit points, 4 skill points per level, favored enemies, and Epic Spells. Damn Rangers rock.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Monk - I really think this class got the shaft at epic levels. He has the worst bonus feat progression (1 bonus feat/5 levels) while only gaining SR, Speed, and AC bonuses at his same slow rate. Honestly, 1 bonus feat/4 levels should be what the monk gets.

Rogue - I must disagree about this class. They have some serious power at higher levels. The rogue alone will qualify for some of the truly powerful feats. Epic Dodge, Dextrous Fortitude/Will, and the Two-Weapon Fighting chain makes rogues quite deadly. I find the rogue's sneak attack obscenely powerful at higher levels, especially considering Lingering Damage (ouch!). This is going to be a *huge* reason for all epic villains to have some sort of sneak attack immunity.

Sorcerer/Wizard - Going to have to disagree here as well. A couple feat choices really screw item creation (Efficient Item Creation should apply to all items, IMO), but the spellcasting power available can be obscene. Especially when Improved Metamagic and Improved Spellcasting Capacity is factored in. Also the Auto-Quick/Silent/Still spell feats are really powerful for those tight situations.

In general, my biggest complaints with the ELH is the Epic Spell system and Epic Item Creation.

 

[Victim]

Monk - I really think this class got the shaft at epic levels. He has the worst bonus feat progression (1 bonus feat/5 levels) while only gaining SR, Speed, and AC bonuses at his same slow rate. Honestly, 1 bonus feat/4 levels should be what the monk gets.

Rogue - I must disagree about this class. They have some serious power at higher levels. The rogue alone will qualify for some of the truly powerful feats. Epic Dodge, Dextrous Fortitude/Will, and the Two-Weapon Fighting chain makes rogues quite deadly. I find the rogue's sneak attack obscenely powerful at higher levels, especially considering Lingering Damage (ouch!). This is going to be a *huge* reason for all epic villains to have some sort of sneak attack immunity.

Sorcerer/Wizard - Going to have to disagree here as well. A couple feat choices really screw item creation (Efficient Item Creation should apply to all items, IMO), but the spellcasting power available can be obscene. Especially when Improved Metamagic and Improved Spellcasting Capacity is factored in. Also the Auto-Quick/Silent/Still spell feats are really powerful for those tight situations.

In general, my biggest complaints with the ELH is the Epic Spell system and Epic Item Creation.

I have to disagree in part for the rogue. Sure, the damage potential Mr. dual wielding halfling rogue borders on the insane. However, as you pointed out, it doesn't take much effort to completely sneak attacks. Comparatively, blur or Fort armor will get cheaper and cheaper for Epic characters, so negating sneak attacks becomes easy.

I agree about Monks. Almost every Monk class feature needs a few feats. Penetrate DR and then some Imp. Ki Strike are needed if the Monk wants to fight unarmed. Monster saves increase so fast that Stunning Fist becomes worthless without some feats invested. And then there are the cool feats that monks would want, like better Deflection or super dodging, etc. They have so many must have feats that they can't get the interesting ones without essentially throwing away their powers. It's not like their class features are so great anyway. One of the best pre Epic monk attributes was his saving throws, and that advantage was lost.

The OA epic progressions seem really bad. Samuri get better skills, iajitsu broken focus, and a FASTER FEAT PROGRESSION!. They get 1 feat per 3 levels, not one per 2 starting with a feat at 21st.

A paladin with extra smiting feats looks like he can really kick some but. Each extra smiting taken in normal levels adds a huge boost to Great Smiting. And, because of the messed up weapon creation rules, that Holy Strike power might actually be useful since it's hideously expensive to add properties to the +6 weapon needed for effective combat.

Something about Epic items seem wrong to me. It doens't seem worth it to increase an item to the Epic level. It seems far superior to just find other stacking bonuses and add those as no space properties to existing items. When you can get almost 4 +5 tomes, or can instead get a True Striking item with +20 insight to attack rolls, or a Helm with Mind Blank, True Seeing, Teleport at will, and maybe a few other things instead of updgrading your belt to +8 from +6, there seems to be a breakdown in efficiency.

 

[Nightfall]

This is why I liked "Demonbane" in R&R2. It made SENSE that bane "Outsider Evil", did more than just hurt the thing. Holy Devastator just seemed...silly.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Ahem -- am I the only one who noticed that monks are the only class that gets five base attacks, where even fighters are limited to four? And while a fighter might burn five feats to throw his attacks up to eight with two-weapon fighting, a monk needs to spend but a single feat on Lightning Fists to have seven attacks at 1d20 damage. Coupled with the fact that the epic monk can basically call for a stun, like what, every other round in a battle? Oh, yeah, monks rock.