CapnZapp
Legend
Yep, that's kind of a given.
This thread is only about the character side, though.
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D&D 5E Epic Level (outline)
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
This thread is only about the character side, though.
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CapnZapp
Legend
It sounds like we're having two separate discussions.
To me it's fine that epic characters break out of the bounded accuracy cage - in fact, that could even be my definition of epic: finally getting to break the rules of the PHB
That this could be a "problem" isn't really true. Since you're already out of bounds for what the game supports, this can't be a fundamental flaw - you're already expected to make it work yourself.
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CapnZapp
Legend
That's pretty much the point
What would be epic if you still had to face the restrictions of non-epic characters...?
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jgsugden
Legend
And we're leaving the boundaries of the design of 5E. To accommodate, we need to adjust. One way to do so is to make monsters more challenging by raising their defenses. However, that negates the advancement of the PCs, essentially, and ends up making a very static game. The other is to assume the PCs will be more effective with their spells and adjust the encounters in other ways to challenge the PCs. Even if the PCs can knock out enemies pretty easily with save or NERFs, you can still challenge them in other ways. I speak from experience - not mere hypothetical speculation. The PCs I ran above 20th level felt like great heroes as they leveled powerful monsters, but faced challenges in how they leveled them - and really felt it when they faced a foe on their power level.
Also, most PCs of this level are not without glass jaws themselves. That also has to be considered. Many high level PCs end up with saves that are near autofails as well.
Again - what does challenging mean? Does it merely mean you have to roll well? If the only challenge in a game comes from how well you roll a die, you're missing most of the game. How do powerful enemies strategize against a wizard with undeniable nerfing spells?
My high level campaigns generally come down to a single threat that knows the PCs oppose him and is doing everything in his power to achieve his goals without the PCs being able to stop him. He does not charge the PCs. He tricks them. He distracts them by sending his armies after towns the PCs have to protect. He hides using the best magic he can get. he guards himself with enough foes that even if the PCs show up with their amazing powers, he can drive them off. HE FEARS THEM. But he opposes them to achieve his goals.
CapnZapp
Legend
Now it gets interesting - you're the first reply to actually start discussing the meat of the proposal!
Is really one auto-hit broken? My experience is that as a high level fighter you normally hit with 3 out of 5 attacks. This boon only ups your hit ratio from 0.6 to 0.8 (very roughly speaking). Does it really change much of anything? It slightly speeds up play, since you can simply assume your round starts with one attack being successful.
And more to the point, contrast to the original wording. Once per rest is infinitely insignificant in the greater scheme of things for a level 20 character...
The Shield thing - well, if that's broken, I would argue it's because Shield is broken. I wouldn't want to nerf the boon just because the top three spells, say, make it too good. I'd much rather nerf those three spells...
Cast all the spells - not sure what you mean...
No concentration interesting - thank you
Class niche protection - sorry, since that's just one level away I didn't think the "spell you know" was a particularly interesting restriction...
Spellcasting does not improve?? The Simbul and "her" three boons would like to have a word with you. Plus the get a level 9 slot and dual concentration boons....! Besides your save DC keeps getting better...
As a spellcaster you can multiclass warrior so you get rid of your weak hp. And still you get all these tricks to make your 20 levels of Wizard even more powerful...
Boon of Speed - unchanged from raw. Plus, monk can still take it. Plus, it's not that you get ALL the boons...
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CapnZapp
Legend
I should probably say that my angle for "epic" is mostly for when heroes meet epic NPCs. I want a rough outline of what a true Archmage can do, and things like ignoring the general rules on concentration, attunement and spellcasting seems appropriate.
A secondary concern is for play at the earliest epic levels.
What I'm not bothered too much about, is play at level 30 or thereabouts. At this stage, yes proficiency bonuses are off the scale. But so is everything else. There are no monsters above CR 30, and we can't expect heroes to just fight increasing numbers of Tiamat cousins.
That's why I feel the proficiency concern is slightly off target. And many of the boon concerns too. At levels 20, 21, 22 or so the skil bonuses aren't meaningfully different from at level 19.
What held true at the regular levels still do. The only difference is that some characters will have their capstone (most will probably have multiclassed a long time ago), and they will have an Epic Boon each (or perhaps two at the most).
There's nothing there which breaks the game, unless it's already broken in your opinion (which is fair). Sure a couple of the boons are powerful, but we're talking about level 20ish characters.
Yes, the ability to keep pushing your prime stat up to 30 will eventually destroy the game. Or at least destroy it even more than it's already destroyed. But my main focus isn't at the end, when every boon is in play, and everything is "filled in".
I'm mostly interested in feedback on the impact of your first boon when you become epic at level 20 or 21 or so.
Specifically, I am really interested in juxtapositing some of the raw boons with my replacements.
For instance, the Boon of Combat Prowess. Sure, automatically hitting with your first attack of the round is great.
But is it really FUBAR? Attacking is what you do. You don't need a completely new power. Everything the boon does for you, you already know how to do. All it does is give you some reliability.
Compare to the original boon, which gives you one auto-hit per rest. Come on, that's nothing.
I am willing to discuss whether my version is overpowered, but first I'm interested in your opinion on the original boons I've changed.
Consider my boons a conversation starter. I want to show how far off the mark I find some of the original boons, by showing an alternative.
A secondary concern is for play at the earliest epic levels.
What I'm not bothered too much about, is play at level 30 or thereabouts. At this stage, yes proficiency bonuses are off the scale. But so is everything else. There are no monsters above CR 30, and we can't expect heroes to just fight increasing numbers of Tiamat cousins.
That's why I feel the proficiency concern is slightly off target. And many of the boon concerns too. At levels 20, 21, 22 or so the skil bonuses aren't meaningfully different from at level 19.
What held true at the regular levels still do. The only difference is that some characters will have their capstone (most will probably have multiclassed a long time ago), and they will have an Epic Boon each (or perhaps two at the most).
There's nothing there which breaks the game, unless it's already broken in your opinion (which is fair). Sure a couple of the boons are powerful, but we're talking about level 20ish characters.
Yes, the ability to keep pushing your prime stat up to 30 will eventually destroy the game. Or at least destroy it even more than it's already destroyed. But my main focus isn't at the end, when every boon is in play, and everything is "filled in".
I'm mostly interested in feedback on the impact of your first boon when you become epic at level 20 or 21 or so.
Specifically, I am really interested in juxtapositing some of the raw boons with my replacements.
For instance, the Boon of Combat Prowess. Sure, automatically hitting with your first attack of the round is great.
But is it really FUBAR? Attacking is what you do. You don't need a completely new power. Everything the boon does for you, you already know how to do. All it does is give you some reliability.
Compare to the original boon, which gives you one auto-hit per rest. Come on, that's nothing.
I am willing to discuss whether my version is overpowered, but first I'm interested in your opinion on the original boons I've changed.
Consider my boons a conversation starter.
I want to show how far off the mark I find some of the original boons, by showing an alternative.
CapnZapp
Legend
The "Boon of Speed hoses Monks" argument:
Keep in mind the opportunity cost. Sure everyone can now play quasi-monk. But if they do, they effectively didn't get anything else from the boon list.
The list doesn't exist in a vacuum - you only need one Boon at first. And what did the Monk get?
At level 30 (or ~700,000 XP I guess if you go by the book), sure, all your friends might have half a dozen boons or more, and you might think your original class means less and less. But is that so wrong?
But back to that first Boon... I bet that if you randomize five boons, chances are the group will end up agreeing the Boon of Speed should go to... the Rogue/Monk, since she's already the one best equipped to use it.
(There's a reason that first boon is a "group boon", since it means the party needs to collectively agree on their "superhero" personas. If the party is ready for a second speedster, there's probably something good in it for the first speedster)
Keep in mind the opportunity cost. Sure everyone can now play quasi-monk. But if they do, they effectively didn't get anything else from the boon list.
The list doesn't exist in a vacuum - you only need one Boon at first. And what did the Monk get?
At level 30 (or ~700,000 XP I guess if you go by the book), sure, all your friends might have half a dozen boons or more, and you might think your original class means less and less. But is that so wrong?
But back to that first Boon... I bet that if you randomize five boons, chances are the group will end up agreeing the Boon of Speed should go to... the Rogue/Monk, since she's already the one best equipped to use it.
(There's a reason that first boon is a "group boon", since it means the party needs to collectively agree on their "superhero" personas. If the party is ready for a second speedster, there's probably something good in it for the first speedster)
Hi,
If your goal is to break the design assumptions of the game, rather than try to both be 'epic' and preserve them, then I think you can do a lot better than what you have. Here's a sample: For every level past 20th, you get all of the following: +10 hit points +1 to proficiency bonus 1 ASI, with the cap of (usually) 20 going away You can also choose one of the following: Martial Prowess: When you take the attack action, you get one extra attack. You also get +1 legendary save per day. Spellcasting Prowess: Requires a non-Warlock casting class. You know one more spell or can prepare one more spell per day. You get one spell slot that is one level higher than your highest spell slot. (Yes, this can grant a 10th level slot and then an 11th level slot, etc.) You also get one spell slot equal to your highest spell slot, but no higher than level 8. Eldritch Prowess: Requires Warlock. You get one more spell known from the Warlock list, and one more invocation. You also pick one of the following: a) One more spell per short rest. c) Your pact magic spell slots all increase by one level (possibly to level 6, level 7, etc), which might allow you access to Warlock spells above level 5. Superior Concentration: You automatically maintain concentration on one spell, and can concentrate on one extra spell. Superior Wildshape: Requires wildshape. Choose any monster whose CR is one greater than the highest CR being you can wildshape into. You can wildshape into that. Tada. Simple, powerful and probably broken in the way that you want. Anyway, KenThat's pretty much the point
CapnZapp
Legend
???
Let's focus on multiclassing and epic boons, shall we? [emoji4]
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