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"Epic" progression after 6th level

Land Outcast

Explorer
Perhaps you should add wether feats like Improved Critical are available (ie: feats with unnatainable prerequisites).

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By the way, are you hosting that "Legends" somewhere?
 

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Ry

Explorer
Land Outcast said:
Perhaps you should add wether feats like Improved Critical are available (ie: feats with unnatainable prerequisites).

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By the way, are you hosting that "Legends" somewhere?

Not quite yet. I'm giving it an edit and then passing it back to Tim. If you want, you can flip me an e-mail, I have a hotmail account named ryanstoughton, and I'll flip it to you (mostly I'm not showing it but I'll make an exception for the playtesters :) )
 
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Ry

Explorer
Also, if any of the other posters who were interested in this before had a chance to play it, how did it go?
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
I'm interested, not for my current game, but for a friend's lower-magic game.

Please do post full rules when they're available, and any feedback from playtesters. :)

Thanks, -- N
 

exempt

First Post
I'm not 100% sure by your description, but it sounds like BAB, spells, saves, etc. etc. don't improve after level 6 except for what feats can do for you. Is that right?
 

Ry

Explorer
Absolutely correct. Once you hit that level, you've proven yourself, and you've likely survived more violence than most humans do in a lifetime. But you're not on your way to being invulnerable to the common man, nor indifferent to his will.

Plays like a fine wine.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
A couple of questions:

How does varying the stop level (say changing it to 10th) affect the game?

Are monsters bound by the same rules?
 

Ry

Explorer
I used monsters across the spectrum, once they're CR 6 I don't add any more class levels - just feats, or (sometimes) monster hit dice. But if you have a creature higher than CR 10, it's basically not an "encounter" but more of an event.
 
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Ry

Explorer
Oh, and for Liches, I use the Bone Creature template, and so on. The great things about those kinds of templates are that they are quite simple to add in-game.
 


phindar

First Post
This is very interesting. I've been considering something similar (like a feat per level, capping out at 9th), to put more lateral advancement into the game. My group tends to play in the mid levels, and there is a tendency to "level out" of the game we enjoy into a game we enjoy less (or just takes more work than we're comfortable with). There is a facet of high level play-- when you're not used to it-- where you spend as much time figuring out how to play (looking up spells, abilities, feats, calculating numbers, etc), than you do actually playing.

Have you considered letting characters gain stat points in addition to feats? Maybe a point every 10k, or lower if you go with a lower overall level of magic. (I'm leaning towards giving pcs a stat point every level and taking permanent stat boosters out, but leaving charged items and spells that do it.)

Have any of your players tried races with LA's? It would seem capping out at 6 HD, that giving up even a level or two would be a much bigger deal than in a game that was running into high levels. I've always been a big proponent of making LA +0 versions of any race... maybe letting them take racial abilities as feats. What about characters gaining LA'd templates in play, like vampires or lycanthropes? Assuming you wanted to allow it, how much to you think it would throw off the numbers? If a group had capped at 6th level, and one of them got chomped by a werebear for what amounts to a free increase in CR, I could see that overshadowing the rest of the group. (There's all kinds of problems with that example, but if a character got a free increase in CR that you were cool with, how would you bring the other pcs up? Would you deficit the guy with increased CR until the group had earned enough feats to even it out, or just not worry about it?)

Edit: Thought of something else.

It seems like this system would benefit from being pretty transparent with creature CR's. In the case of the black dragon of Staunwark Isle, the players knowing roughly how far above their level the monster is will determine how much help, special resources and knowledge they will seek before going there. (Personally, I find tougher encounters the party can prep for to be more fun than easier encounters that are sprung on them, even if the relative level of difficulty is about the same.
 
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Ry

Explorer
There are two extra rules that I wrote and used:

I had a rule where each stat point upgrade was 500 * the next value. So going from STR 11 to STR 12 was 6000 exp. I didn't include this in the first post because IMC it hasn't seen much use (a few odd to evens around 10-14 range, that's it).

For LA races, what I did was change the point buy. A LA +0 was 32 point buy, LA +1 25, LA +2 18, LA +3 10, and LA +4 0. This is an optional rule because LA races of course are optional.
 

Shieldhaven

First Post
Considering that the PCs in my game are 6th level at the moment, and I've seen how much devastation they can bring to bear, I find this idea quite compelling. I don't know that I'd ever be able to talk the players into playing in a campaign with these rules, but I'd love to hear more about the experiences of people who do use 'em.

Haven
 

Ry

Explorer
I was surprised how much my players jumped on board when I gave them the idea, especially since we'd had several campaigns disintegrate around 8th-10th level before. But I admit it was better to design the game this way from the start - building it into the world assumptions.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
Do you limit what can be gained to just feats? How about extra spells per day? Extra BAB (up to +6)? Extra stats? Extra skills? Are feats from the ELH allowed? Can you give an example of an epic character?
 

phindar

First Post
rycanada said:
There are two extra rules that I wrote and used:

I had a rule where each stat point upgrade was 500 * the next value. So going from STR 11 to STR 12 was 6000 exp. I didn't include this in the first post because IMC it hasn't seen much use (a few odd to evens around 10-14 range, that's it).

For LA races, what I did was change the point buy. A LA +0 was 32 point buy, LA +1 25, LA +2 18, LA +3 10, and LA +4 0. This is an optional rule because LA races of course are optional.
I've done the same thing for LA races, oddly.

Back in the dark days of 2ed, I had a GM do something similar for characters that had reached their level limit. They continued to earn xp and could spend it for spells or proficiencies. One player ended up putting 50,000xp into an "Epic" spell, a 10th level one from a supplement (Priest's Handbook maybe?) and I guess that player thought he'd bought it as a spell-like ability, because he used it in a fairly unimportant combat and was shocked to find out that nope, it was a one-shot thing-- 50k for a 10th level spell. The player was miffed but you know, it was kind of funny. (Put that in the file of "Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.")
 

Ry

Explorer
phindar said:
I've done the same thing for LA races, oddly.

Not odd at all; the debate over how to handle LA has happened many times - I think this consistently comes up as the best option. I yoinked it from such a thread.
 

igavskoga

First Post
Quartz said:
Do you limit what can be gained to just feats? How about extra spells per day? Extra BAB (up to +6)? Extra stats? Extra skills? Are feats from the ELH allowed? Can you give an example of an epic character?


I would be curious to hear more elaborations along this line. I really dig the idea of stopping between 6-10 but allowing some form of ad hoc advancement afterwards. I have no idea of how I'd convince my players to go along with it though. Then again, sometimes they do surprise me. :D
 

Ry

Explorer
Quartz said:
Do you limit what can be gained to just feats?
Essentially no, because I allowed feats that help out in the other areas you described. 101 Feats has one that lets your BAB = your level, for example, and WotC splats let you expand spells per day, and get new skill points. Feats from ELH usually have unobtainable requirements.
 

Ry

Explorer
igavskoga said:
I would be curious to hear more elaborations along this line. I really dig the idea of stopping between 6-10 but allowing some form of ad hoc advancement afterwards. I have no idea of how I'd convince my players to go along with it though. Then again, sometimes they do surprise me. :D

This system really caters to a "sweet spot" of 6-10, because you spend a LOT more of your time with players in that power range (hard to get out the top but easy to get into that section). That's my favorite part of D&D anyway, and the effects of things like not giving out so many magic items is fairly minimal.
 

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