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"Epic" progression after 6th level

Khuxan

First Post
Hi,

I quickly went through the SRD docs and deleted class levels from 7 to 20, spell levels from 4 to 9, and feats with impossible prerequisites. It's a bit of a rushed job, so I'm sure it's got relics of the old system (for example, fighters still have Improved Critical as a bonus feat option even though that's been removed), but it was created to easily compare classes from 1st to 6th level without the baggage of levels 7 to 20.

http://www.box.net/shared/z62l7pnlxs
 

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Ry

Explorer
Hey, sweet - tastic. I expected no less from a feat man such as yourself :)

That makes me think of a tagline:

If you love feats, you'll love... Ry20.

But then again, maybe I should go with:

Ry20: Shut up and play.
 

Ry

Explorer
BTW, thanks for titling it Ry20 :)

I love EN World.

And Bump, because I've updated the first post with the 2 optional rules that I use with this game (level adjustment and Conviction).
 

Koewn

First Post
This'd work out really nice with True Sorcery too; stopping at 6th leaves you at 9 ranks in Spellcraft and First Magnitude (which is where the bulk of the talents are).

It'd be a lot more lower magic that DND; but TS takes on modifications like group casting rituals and whatnot very easily.

Items that give bonuses to Spellcraft would quickly become legendary.
 

Ry

Explorer
You know the DM's Best Friend rule? Well, in Ry20 (with Players roll all the dice), you've still got the DM's Best Friend, but in addition, meet the DM's Sultry Mistress.

I was looking at my old D&D statistical analysis stuff (I have a big database of monsters and NPCs and I did some curves for how they develop) and I hit upon something for the 1-6 + feats range of characters. When you look at the attack DCs (11+attack roll for die-rollin' DMs), armor classes, save DCs, and even skills, you start to see a pattern that fits - not badly - to the following set.

The DM's Sultry Mistress

Typical DCs / ACs by level:
Level 1: 15
Level 2: 16
Level 3: 17
Level 4: 18
Level 5: 19
Level 6: 20

If you think your situation is atypical, add or subtract up to 5.

Obviously, these aren't hard figures; but they are close-enough-to-get-away-with-it figures.
 
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Ry

Explorer
Khuxan said:
Hi,

I quickly went through the SRD docs and deleted class levels from 7 to 20, spell levels from 4 to 9, and feats with impossible prerequisites. It's a bit of a rushed job, so I'm sure it's got relics of the old system (for example, fighters still have Improved Critical as a bonus feat option even though that's been removed), but it was created to easily compare classes from 1st to 6th level without the baggage of levels 7 to 20.

http://www.box.net/shared/z62l7pnlxs

I wish I had some talent at layout, because if I did I would turn these things into a "real" player's handbook.
 

Machiavelli

First Post
How do players usually handle choosing level-adjusted races with the level adjustment modification? Specifically, how well does the loss of starting stats usually balance out with the gain of starting stats?
 

Ry

Explorer
If you think of, say, Draconic, depending on the build, you can turn it into a small loss or a small gain over the point buy. Them's, as it were, the breaks. The system I put above doesn't solve LA's problems - it just gets closer to doing so for E6L's purposes.
 
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Ry

Explorer
Wow, Khuxan... just wow. Please keep me updated as you work on this, this is fantastic. What program are you using before converting to .pdf?
 

Ry

Explorer
Do you know about the ones that The Other Game Company made? Those could be the "Ability Scores", "Races" and "Equipment" chapters.

Wow, I'm really excited for this project again.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Hmm. Interested in a SW Saga (style) adaptation? Six levels is easier to balance than 20, so it would be an interesting exercise IMHO.

-- N
 

Khuxan

First Post
rycanada said:
Wow, Khuxan... just wow. Please keep me updated as you work on this, this is fantastic. What program are you using before converting to .pdf?

PagePlus, which you can get free here. It's very intuitive and easy to pick up. I can upload the .ppp files if you're interested.

rycanda said:
Do you know about the ones that The Other Game Company made? Those could be the "Ability Scores", "Races" and "Equipment" chapters.

Wow, I'm really excited for this project again.

The SRD Handouts? They look nice, although not that much different to just printing out the relevant section from the SRD. For races I was thinking about collecting all the monstrous races from LA 1 to ECL 6, although that'd be in the mid-to-distant future.

The Great and Mighty Nifft said:
Hmm. Interested in a SW Saga (style) adaptation? Six levels is easier to balance than 20, so it would be an interesting exercise IMHO.

Not sure I understand what you mean? Just cutting off the Star Wars classes at level 6?
 
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Ry

Explorer
Well, that would make for a much bigger project... although I'm intrigued.

There's a downside, though - the more you stray from D&D, the less outside material remains compatible.

To get your skill consolidation, and maintain compatibility, you could add on Iron Heroes-style skill groups, where you pay 1 skill point to get 1 point in a set of skills (like Tumble, Jump, and Balance).

Personally, I hate Ability Scores and would rather ditch them in favor of Ability modifiers. But that changes a few SRD spells (although not many, since we only have 0th-3rd). What else were you thinking of, Nifft?
 

Ry

Explorer
One thing I forgot to mention is that if you don't like first-level fatalities, it's no problem to start E6L games at 2nd. I've started new characters at 6th and still had a blast. Feel free to let your players play badasses right from the start if that's your style.
 

Ry

Explorer
Here's a file that was the result of painstaking statistical analysis on D&D. This gives you even better "best guesses" for ad-hoc monster and NPC stats.

I like to think of it as the DM's Able Secretary
 

Attachments

  • DMs Able Secretary.xls
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Gold Roger

First Post
Nifft said:
Hmm. Interested in a SW Saga (style) adaptation? Six levels is easier to balance than 20, so it would be an interesting exercise IMHO.

-- N
You gave me quite an idea here - I'm homebrewing a (gritty) anime spacepulp system based on SW saga and escalating hp was a concern of mine.

If I use epic after 6th or 8th rules, allowing to buy feats, talents and access to additional talent trees with xp after the level cap...


...hmmm...
 

Ry

Explorer
I remember there was this long discussion about how there are 4 quartiles in D&D:

1-5 : Gritty
6-10: Heroic
11-15: Wuxia
16-20: Superheroes

Personally, I like the first two quartiles the best. Sounds like you do too. :)
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Khuxan said:
Not sure I understand what you mean? Just cutting off the Star Wars classes at level 6?

The SW Saga classes all look like this:

Level 1: Starting Feats, Defense Bonus, Talent
Level 2: Bonus Feat
Level 3: Talent
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5: Talent
Level 6: Bonus Feat
... etc.

The only differences are skills, hit die, and defense bonus. All the rest is bonus feats and talent trees.

If you multi-class, you get one of your new class's Starting Feats (not all of them) -- this allows front-loading without encouraging multi-classing too much.

So the interesting thing here would be to break down class abilities into Talents and Feats, and then to establish "Epic" XP prices for these Talents & Feats.

Cheers, -- N
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
rycanada said:
There's a downside, though - the more you stray from D&D, the less outside material remains compatible.
True, but SW Saga is hot right now. Many intelligent people consider that it might be a preview for 4e. So the effort may be less wasted. :)

rycanada said:
To get your skill consolidation, and maintain compatibility, you could add on Iron Heroes-style skill groups, where you pay 1 skill point to get 1 point in a set of skills (like Tumble, Jump, and Balance).
SW Saga has a neat solution for this: the way you get trained in a new skill is to raise your Int bonus (skill training is retro-active) or take a Feat. We can price those; skills fold into the system nicely, without any independent mechanic.

For the 5 classes in SW Saga, there's a nice trade-off between starting HP and starting skills -- two classes start with 30 HP and 2-3 skills, two classes start off with 24 HP and 4-5 skills, and one class starts off with 18 HP and 6 skills. They have mostly the same number of starting feats; each one has at least one starting feat that the others do not.

Spellcasters would be different, of course -- that's a part of the system that's significantly different. The SW Saga Force powers are much more like ToB maneuvers than spells.

Anyway. Just thinking out loud, for the moment. :)

Cheers, -- N
 

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