Equiment vs. Skill in D&D

[The_Gneech]

The Conan RPG gets around this by, among other things, having all of the characters' stats go up by 1 periodically, on top of their 4-levels bonus. Thus, they end up with huge stat modifiers to everything, instead of magic bonuses to everything.

It works pretty well for the setting, I think, but might be problematic in less ripsnortin' sorts of settings.

-The Gneech

 

[Ysgarran]

The problem I have is that the players *LIKE* their toys. They feel something is missing from the game when they don't get new toys to play with. It is a frustration I have because it isn't in the direction I prefer to have the games.

Since the goal is to have fun, I've never pushed too hard with the players in my group.

I'll have to take a look at Iron Lore. It sounds like something I would like, even if my players wouldn't.

 

[paulsometimes]

One thing I like about equipment is that it leaves the characters a little more vulnerable. Lose something, have it stolen, throw it in a fit of madness, and there go the ability bonuses. Something that I think DMs should take advantage of as many players grow complacent and don't keep much track of their stuff, or good guard. They'll learn eventually (hopefully). Another thing to consider is players very much like getting that equipment. It's a goal to look forward to, much like we do in reality. Many people have a car that gets them from point A to Point B just fine, but they like to daydream of the day they have a car that gets them there "in style".

Paul

 

[Yair]

Or the axe is not magical, the character just channels cold energy (And a +3 bonus) through axes. Likewise, the wizard has a staff through which he can cast certain spells. It's not the staff that does it though.

This works well too, but it is a different flavor. When Thor picks up Mahonjir (IIRC?!) and strikes with it, he strikes with Mahonjir, he is not just channeling energy through axes in general. So it's cool to have both options, that's all I'm saying.
Be weary of the "I'm throwing my sole +1 dagger... AGAIN" syndrome, though: require time/ritual/whatever if you allow characters to imbue ranged weapons with power.

Disposable magic items aren't really a part of your equipment, per se, because they'll be discareded eventually... A bundle of scrolls, a wand, a potion, a staff...IMC, I let them in virtually unchanged because the are temporary, so the aren't meant to be a permenant part of your character's power.

As long as you count them into the character's wealth per level, that's fine. But then, the whole "wealth determines powers, not items" idea is left hanging. Unless you're saying the amount of gp expanded into disposable items is negligable; in that case, yes, you can neglect them. This wasn't the case in my game, but hey we played at low levels.

I've always tied it into the charater's own history and motives, thinking of them more like highly specialized class abilities. It's the warrior who always fancied himself an astronomer who gets to fly to take him closer to the stars, or the barbarian whose jumps almost defy gravity, or the sorcerer who has specialized in air magic...it's not just any character, it reflects the character's powers. That belt of giant's strength is probably going to the party's warrior anyway, saying that the party's warrior has developed a supernatural strength from having bull's strength cast on him so many times seems to make perfect sense.

Certainly, and some good examples too.

I'm not sure what you mean by "material" magic items...but yeah, it is cool to allow those disposable or iconic magic items, and there's no reason those have to be taken out.

Bad terminology, I apologize. I mean items that depend on their material form, shape, or even composition to reasonably or properly function. For example, a +1 sword should be a +1 sword, a broom of flying can be a carpet, brooch, boots, wings, or anything else - or nothing at all.

Not so much. That +2 to Strength works just like a belt in that it's an enhacement bonus, and it is magical. It can be dispelled, and it doesn't stack with most magic. You can't go out and buy a belt to augment your magically discovered strength further.

I was refering to NONmagical gear. For example, I had a character with an adamantine masterwork dwarven waraxe. That's using nonmagical wealth to augment his powers in addition to the powers granted by the wealth-per-level rules, so he ends up more powerful.

Special materials, mighty bows, higher-masterwork house rules, or regular magic items available for purchase - anything that can be had with gp unhinges the idea that wealth-per-level now determines powers instead of magic items.

 

[sukael]

(Mjolnir, actually... and now back to Your Regularly Scheduled Discussion ^.^)

 

[Darmanicus]

In my recent hiatus as a DM and stint as purely a player in my tabletop gaming experience, I started to notice just how much equipment mattered in D&D (not that I just noticed but rather it started to bother me). In the epic game I'm playing in, my character has all kinds of really good equipment, and most of his numerical boosts to attack, damage, AC, saves, etc. come from one piece of equipment or another. Even earlier on when we were at 15th level I found this to be true. This has led me to start working on a campaign setting where there are more improvements to characters and less of an emphasis on stiff, i.e. lower ceilings on item powers compensated by more powerful character powers.

I'm all for really cool stuff, but from my experience with fantasy in general from the time I was really young, it was the skill of the heroes mattered more than they do in D&D. For mid to high-level characters and beyond, equipment matters too much IMHO. Does anyone else feel this way?

It's quite comparable to real life though.....

Where would a fire fighter be without his fire retardent gear and breathing apparatus? It wouldn't matter that he's as strong as an ox and able to carry all 50 of the trapped pensioners in the burning building at the same time......he's still gonna fry man!!!

At mid to high levels you are going up against some serious players not some low level mooks, and fights are inevitable. When those fights are against an Ancient Red Wyrm or some Death Knight of legend I don't care what 'skills' you have when they're laying the smackdown on ya, it won't matter, whereas that ring of fire absorption or Holy Avenger invariably will.

Also what 'skill' gonna help you FLY thru the plane of air or shrug off the effects of an assasins poison?

I think you're looking for a low magic game in which I suppose skills will invariably shine.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The key, I think, is working out a system in which characters can have both cool items AND cool innate abilities. The way I see it is that encounter and inter-class balance in D&D, given core assumptions, basically REQUIRES a standard array of magic items. I'd like to see a setting in which magic items are prized more as heirlooms and for unique, one-of-a-kind capabilities than they are basic tools. High-level D&D relies too much on "plus" items for my taste: Items that confer a flat numerical bonus to stats, AC, attack rolls, or skills just aren't very exciting to me. I'd like a system in which the numerical bonuses were just rolled into characters' stats, leaving the more unusual capabilities (flight, invisibility, instantaneous magical effects) to the magic items. What I currently do IMC is give my PCs the partial benefits of VoP (about half the stats, AC bonuses, etc.), and cut standard PC wealth by half, giving out items with a strong emphasis on "flashy" powers rather than straight pluses. Of course, this requires an overhaul of the item creation rules...

Iron Lore seems like a good starting point, especially since it targets the most item-dependent types: The fighters (and, to some extent, the rogue). I can see running a campaign with the Arcana Unearthed spellcasters, the IL fighter-types, and some limited, one-of-a-kind items only.

 

[Andor]

The key, I think, is working out a system in which characters can have both cool items AND cool innate abilities.

Have you considered EarthDawn?

 

[brehobit]

Here is my take on a solution to the "Lots of magic items" Doesn't drop the "magic items are huge" aspect but...

Step 1: Give only ~1/3 of the expected money/level.
Step 2: Allow the creation of "heirloom" items. The item only works for the person it is created for (or direct desendents or perhaps members of the same PrC etc.). Further, a person can only have one heirloom item (they get bonded to the soul, one per customer.)

Binding an item costs the an amount equal to the DMG EXPs required to create it. Creating a heirloom item costs 1,000 GP+1/4 of the normal cost of the item and 1/4 of the normal EXPs. Upgrading an item can be done pretty much normally (difference between old and new value)/4 +1000, but binding is more expensive (repay half of old binding cost plus the full EXP cost for the upgrade). So an item that per DMG cost 10,000 GP would cost 3,500 GP +100 EXPs to make and 400 EXPs to bond. Upgrading it to a 20,000 DMG cost item would be 3,500 GP+100EXPs, and 200+400 EXPs to bond. Bonding takes 1 day per 10,000 GP DMG value.

One can try to bind an item created for someone else, but it costs normal EXPs and may fail (and on a critical failure could cause serious badness). (Target number is 5+DMG cost/5,000, use better of will save (+5 if you have the right creation feat) or UMD skill. Crit failure if miss by 10 or more. Crit failure can be level drain, stat drain, or having item bond as cursed item of some sort)

PCs tend to upgrade rarely (because of the EXP cost) but generally get what they want. Further, the baddies can have nice items that the PCs can't use (or probably sell) without significant work. You have to figure out who their heir is, find someone interested in buying the thing, or perhaps take a level in the needed PrC (depending on the item). You still see people buying and making non-heirloom "cheap" items (+2 resistance, bag of holding etc.) but mostly money gets saved for upgrades at the local wizard's guild (or temple or using item creation feats).

The DM has to be careful about what combinations of powers are allowed in heirloom items, and I tend to require items to follow a theme of some sort. A +3 holy sword, that provides a +3 deflection bonus and a +3 resistance bonus and casts spells as a 3rd level cleric is pretty reasonable for 13-14th level character if that is the vast majority of their "stuff".

The PCs tend to have a power level slightly lower than that of normal PCs, with normal items even though they may have a similar total value (using normal DMG rules). Only pretty high-level bad guys have non-heirloom items of any significant power. You should find that your PCs will have potions and scrolls, but otherwise will keep their money in their heirloom items.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't think that item dependency is as much of a problem as people seem to think. It's a part of most of the legends and stories that D&D draws from.

Lord of the Rings: Aragorn had Narsil, Bilbo had Sting and the mithril coat, merry had the blade of westernesse (and as we're told, no other blade could have severed the spells layered round the Nazgul in the same way), Gandalf had his staff ("I told you to take his staff!") and Glamdring, Legolas was given the bow of Lorien, etc, etc. Speaking in D&D terms, you don't quite get to see the characters' equipment lists but it seems worthy of D&D. (5 days' lembas, 10 days' iron rations (from Faramir), 50 feet of elven rope, Galadriel's box with the mallorn seed in it and the earth of Lorien, blade of westernesse, numenorean walking staff (from faramir), cloak of evlenkind, belt of lorien, explorer's outfit, backpack, tinderbox, waterskin... hmm, actually mayb eyou do--that's all Sam and it's all mentioned (except for the explorer's outfit) in the book).

Legends of King Arthur: of course, there are a lot of legends, but excalibur and its sheath figure into most of them. In some of them, Arthur needs to go find excalibur because his old sword (drawn from the stone) shatters in a duel and he can't win without a good sword. Galahad gets a special holy shield IIRC, and Balin strikes the dolorous stroke with the lance of longinus/spear of destiny. In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, the Green Knight's wife gives him a ribbon that he is told will enable him to survive the Green Knight's axe.

The Chronicles of Narnia: Not exactly primary source material for D&D, but you'll find lots of significant items there: the gifts from Father Christmas to Peter, Susan, and Lucy, the black armor Rillian rides in with the green witch, the white witch's wand, her stone knife, the silver chair, the green rings and the yellow rings, dwarf mail (which is described as being significantly better than ordinary mail), etc.

The Norse sagas: They go on for pages about Skarphedin's axe, the ogress of war, the enchanted sword Cormac borrows, the iron buckler used by another warrior, Gunnar's magic bill, etc. You know that the characters are personally powerful and skilled, but you also know that Cormac needs a magic sword to beat his enemy (who also has one).

Beowulf: It seems like at least 10% of the page count describes weapons (and a bit of armor). Even Beowulf's borrowed blade wouldn't bite on Grendel's mother, so he had to use a giant-forged sword he found in her lair to kill her.

Greek Myths: Perseus got to borrow Athena's Aegis to fight Medusa (and in some legends, he had a special sword too). Ulysses and Ajax (IIRC) fought over Achilles' armor, and Diomedes shield was said to be impregnable. Zeus's lightning bolts were forged by the cyclops (rather than an innate power). Gyges had a magic ring that let him turn invisible.

Elric saga: Stormblade. And Elric's potions. (I only read one book and only read it once so I can't tell you much more than that).

Some of the source material is less item-dependent, and I think it's good to devise mechanics to suit that style of play. But let's not pretend that all--or even the majority--of the source material is incompatible with D&D's item dependence.