Evil casters using [good] spells ?

[jigokusabre]

The Book of Vile Darkness, pages 7-9, Evil Actions, Casting Evil Spells.
Monte Cook described a broader-than-core optional view of what was an evil act, and included the casting of spells with the Evil descriptor.

Yeah, I should have figured, but I didn't want to dig up my BoVD.

 

[irdeggman]

But the inability to cast Chaotic spells is not part of the Code of Conduct for a Lawful cleric. It's not 'is forbidden to' or 'may not' or 'should not'; it's simply something he can't do.

A Lawful cleric cannot cast Chaotic spells... but not because his god says it would be naughty, so he elects not to; he actually can't do it. He has no access to those spells. But like the specialist wizard, if he gains access to those spells that are unavailable to him via another class, there's nothing preventing him casting them as a member of that other class.

I have to disagree IMO this is most definitely a code of conduct.

Per the SRD:

Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.


Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Now it is either a code of conduct for the deity (see ex-clerics) or part of a code of conduct the cleric has assumed by taking an alignment (e.g., lawful in this case). This is true even though the character might not have developed a specific and detailed code of conduct but follows along the same path as a paladin having one. So a cleric has one too, just usually less prescriptive.

A multiclassed druid/bard who wears forbidden armor loses the ability to cast druid spells, or use supernatural or spell-like class abilities. Countersong is a supernatural class ability; is this lost for 24 hours? Or does the loss only apply to supernatural class abilities provided by the druid class?

Who are you and what did you do to Hyp? This is not the type of structure in making a point that I’ve come to expect from him.

Since the text in question is under Class features for the druid class (weapon and armor proficiency) it sure appears that it is only in relation to the druid class abilities supernatural and spell-like class abilities.

The same argument can be used for the paladin since it doesn’t say paladin class abilities it could be read that the character loses all class abilities (from any class). And it is even more logical to read the paladin one in that manner since it is not under the class features section but rather under ex-paladins.

 

[Vraister]

A side question:

Do clerics have the spells opposed to their allignment on their spell list and therefore are able to use scrolls of these spells?

Vraister

 

[Bront]

A side question:

Do clerics have the spells opposed to their allignment on their spell list and therefore are able to use scrolls of these spells?

Vraister

So, the same reason a specialist wizard can't use scrolls or items that rely on spells that are from forbiden schools.

 

[Darmanicus]

A Lawful cleric cannot cast Chaotic spells... but not because his god says it would be naughty, so he elects not to; he actually can't do it. He has no access to those spells. But like the specialist wizard, if he gains access to those spells that are unavailable to him via another class, there's nothing preventing him casting them as a member of that other class.

-Hyp.

But if he were to cast a spell with the chaotic alignment descriptor he would be acting in ways contrary to his gods alignment thus should be reprehanded by his god for doing so. When the cleric/wizard decides to cast one of his wizard spells his god wont just ignore him because for that fraction of time he's a 'wizard'.

 

[irdeggman]

The problem you get when you try to place alignment descriptors as on or not on the cleric's spell list is the exact same one that Hyp brought up on a separate post with making aligned weapons. The align weapon spell does not have a descriptor until cast. So a good cleric can use a scroll of align weapon made by an evil cleric, he just can't use it to make an evil aligned weapon (back to the code of conduct thing).

 

[Voadam]

I have to disagree IMO this is most definitely a code of conduct.

Per the SRD:


Now it is either a code of conduct for the deity (see ex-clerics) or part of a code of conduct the cleric has assumed by taking an alignment (e.g., lawful in this case). This is true even though the character might not have developed a specific and detailed code of conduct but follows along the same path as a paladin having one. So a cleric has one too, just usually less prescriptive.

No. A code has consequences for a violation (druids and paladins lose their powers). A cleric can choose to violate his god's code and risk the consequences

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

A cleric can not choose to cast a contrary alignment spell

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

The only reference to a code is in the section on ex-clerics and only applies to gods' codes. It technically only applies if the god has a code. If the god does not or the cleric is not a follower of a god then under RAW no worries. But they still can't cast prohibited alignment spells.

 

[Voadam]

But if he were to cast a spell with the chaotic alignment descriptor he would be acting in ways contrary to his gods alignment thus should be reprehanded by his god for doing so. When the cleric/wizard decides to cast one of his wizard spells his god wont just ignore him because for that fraction of time he's a 'wizard'.

Only if the god cares and is that involved in micromanaging his clerics.

"My mystic theurge, remember I your patron Corellion Larethian am chaotic good in alignment. How dare you use a wizardly scroll spell of Protection from Chaos when going against those demons! I think some reprimanding is in order."

 

[Hypersmurf]

The same argument can be used for the paladin since it doesn’t say paladin class abilities it could be read that the character loses all class abilities (from any class). And it is even more logical to read the paladin one in that manner since it is not under the class features section but rather under ex-paladins.

Exactly. It's implicit that it refers to Paladin class abilities, or Druid Supernatural or Spell-Like class abilities.

Likewise, a cleric cannot cast contrarily-aligned spells... there's an implicit 'as a cleric' there. A specialist wizard cannot cast spells from his forbidden schools... as a wizard.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

No. A code has consequences for a violation (druids and paladins lose their powers). A cleric can choose to violate his god's code and risk the consequences

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Insert the missing text from teh PHB and it makes more sense:

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god generally by acting in ways opposed to the god’s alignment or purposes loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

A cleric can not choose to cast a contrary alignment spell

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

The only reference to a code is in the section on ex-clerics and only applies to gods' codes. It technically only applies if the god has a code. If the god does not or the cleric is not a follower of a god then under RAW no worries. But they still can't cast prohibited alignment spells.

And the game mechanic reason for this is? It is not like the spells aren't on their spell list (see Align Weapon for example).

And the following text:

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

Sure sounds like a code of conduct to me since it is "moral or ethical" in nature.