D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[Tales and Chronicles]

good point, which is why I guess I like exhaustion as much simpler and as scary

IMO, the problem with Exhaustion is that it affects martial characters much more than caster: disadvantage on skill checks, attack rolls and saves is somewhat easy to circumvent as a caster, so the chart becomes more harsh only at exhaustion level 4-ish. At least if high level slots were blocked at specific exhaustion levels, or if you had penalties regarding concentration or spell DC!

 

[DND_Reborn]

As for HD loss, the problem is that they don't hurt the PC on the spot, only future recovery, so it's not really scary, unless you say something like "at 0 HD, you die" ?

That was the idea (at 0 HD you die).

To be more precise, my idea would be to drain Hit Dice Maximum, which IS a mechanic we are using the our 5E mod, so it would carry over well to a draining feature for undead.

For example, an 8th-level PC might have 8 HD. He has already spent 3 healing during the day, so has 5 /8 remaining. He is drained by a vampire and now has 5 / 6 (the 8 reduced to 6). Another drain would reduce him to 4 / 4, and so on. If the maximum HD reaches 0, he dies.

IMO, the problem with Exhaustion is that it affects martial characters much more than caster: disadvantage on skill checks, attack rolls and saves is somewhat easy to circumvent as a caster, so the chart becomes more harsh only at exhaustion level 4-ish. At least if high level slots were blocked at specific exhaustion levels, or if you had penalties regarding concentration or spell DC!

Yeah, which is why we eventually dropped the level of exhaustion at 0 HP house-rule... even considering our Endurance rule (your CON mod gave you "extra free levels of exhaustion", so with CON 16 you could take 3 levels before suffering negative effects on the 4th level).

The PCs most likely to go to 0 HP were the ones more affected by the exhaustion. Half speed at level 2 was restricted mobility a lot, which martials need. And of course level 3 with disadvantage on attacks and saves was harsh. And half maximum HP was brutal.

Sure, casters had some issues with them, but not as much.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

For consideration, I'll just toss in how I've handled Level Drain since the late 80's or very early 90's.

Life Energy Levels
Every PLAYER CHARACTER (or select NPC's) has a "LEL". It is equal to their Level. When hit by a level drain, that level drain comes from that LEL number. Think of it like 'HPs for Level Drain'. When those LEL's are reduced to BELOW 0, the PC looses an actual level. His/her LEL is then re-set at his/her new level.
..
LEL's recover at the rate of 1 per full day of rest. A bonus LEL can be recovered that day if the PC has been at least moderately devoted to the gods or other Outer Planes creatures of significant power, like Demon Lords, Elemental Lords, Arch-Devils, unique entities like Primus or the Cat Lord, etc. The PC must perform a specific ritual that they can learn from various sources; ancient texts, 9th+ level priests/paladins, sages, etc. Once learned, the PC can use it forever more (eg: it's not a 'spell'...you can do it if you have the appropriate stuff; think of it like "eating your veggies...but for your soul"). The cost varies a little, based on material costs of the needed sacrifices/etc, but averages to be about 100gp to 300gp per day (1d6x50gp). This cost is fixed when the PC learns that particular ritual! This means they CAN learn a cheaper version...if they can find it.
..
If/when a PC looses all their LEL's and looses a REAL Level, that is handled as per the normal AD&D rules; a Restoration spell is needed, or Wish, etc. If a Real Level is then returned (say, via Restoration), then the characters LEL is fully restored to that regained level (e.g., Level 9 PC gets dropped to Level 8 and looses some LELS in the process, down to 3 LEL; he gets a Restoration spell cast on him; he jumps back up to his Real Level of 9th again, and his LEL is instantly reset to the full LEL 9 ).
..

And that's how I handle Level Drain. In a nutshell. It does two things: Keeps the soul-crushing fear of powerful undead... keeps the very special nature of Clerics and high-level Paladins as very special indeed!... and allows for the recovery of LEL to be integrated into the campaigns actual play and lore, allowing for the "powers of the multiverse" and their worship to actually get some air-time during the roleplaying session (in stead of just the typical lip service).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Casimir Liber]

IMO, the problem with Exhaustion is that it affects martial characters much more than caster: disadvantage on skill checks, attack rolls and saves is somewhat easy to circumvent as a caster, so the chart becomes more harsh only at exhaustion level 4-ish. At least if high level slots were blocked at specific exhaustion levels, or if you had penalties regarding concentration or spell DC!

This is a fair point, but given the collaborative nature of the party unit as a whole, the spellcasters are gonna feel distinctly uncomfortable if all the frontline fighters are compromised. Not a perfect solution though.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

This is a fair point, but given the collaborative nature of the party unit as a whole, the spellcasters are gonna feel distinctly uncomfortable if all the frontline fighters are compromised. Not a perfect solution though.

Agreed. I dont think there's is a great need to look further than the Exhaustion mechanic if we want to keep it simple.

 

[Gadget]

I like the Exhaustion solution as I've often felt that 5e has underutilized the mechanic. I also feel that Lesser Restoration should restore a level of Exhaustion, as it makes not quite as punishing and seems incongruous that you can recover from death (Revivify 3rd level spell) easier than Exhaustion (Greater Restoration 5th level spell). It does have the problem of affecting martial characters more than spell casters though.

I could see hit dice being reduced as well, but that seems like more of a delayed penalty with less immediate effect.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I like the Exhaustion solution as I've often felt that 5e has underutilized the mechanic. I also feel that Lesser Restoration should restore a level of Exhaustion, as it makes not quite as punishing and seems incongruous that you can recover from death (Revivify 3rd level spell) easier than Exhaustion (Greater Restoration 5th level spell). It does have the problem of affecting martial characters more than spell casters though.

I could see hit dice being reduced as well, but that seems like more of a delayed penalty with less immediate effect.

yeah, having lesser restoration recover 1 level of exhaustion and greater restoration recover all of them would make more sense.

 

[DND_Reborn]

yeah, having lesser restoration recover 1 level of exhaustion and greater restoration recover all of them would make more sense.

I can agree with others on this, too.

 

[Composer99]

In my Fantasy Heartbreaker, I have 21 points of exhaustion; you die at 21. Every 2 points of exhaustion is a "level" of exhaustion, in that that's how often it causes a change in PC status. And some of the status changes do impact casters more.

This thread had inspired me to use this as a substitute for classic undead level drain. Taking a half dozen points of exhaustion in a fight would be immediately impactful without necessarily being instantly fatal.

Also, it fits with a goal of streamlining a bit - sure, the exhaustion mechanic isn't as streamlined, but the game as a whole is with one less mechanical subsystem (and one less finicky thing to track).

 

[Jack Daniel]

I think I've tried every alternative to level drain under the sun. None of them have ever worked right though. In the end, I just went back to by-the-book level drain — though I do take some of the sting out of it by letting clerics reverse level drain via normal healing magic (at the added cost of exhausting both cleric and patient for a couple of weeks that they both have to spend bedridden).