Expanded ECL rules!

[Anubis]

Expanded ECL rules! (Version 3)

Okay, here are my newly revised rules. I hope things are finally fixed properly. I have also added S'mon's changes to NPC class ECL modifers for reference.

REVISED ECL/CR RULES V.3

Determining ECL:

CLASS ECL MODIFIERS

+1 ECL per Class Level*

*Commoners receive +1 ECL/2 Levels. All other NPC classes receive +3 ECL/4 Levels.

DIVINE ECL MODIFIERS

+10 ECL for Divine Rank 0
+20 ECL for Divine Rank 1
+4 ECL per Divine Rank over Divine Rank 1

HIT DICE ECL MODIFIERS

+4 ECL/5 Hit Dice (80%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+3 ECL/5 Hit Dice (60%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 Hit Dice (40%) for Beasts
+1 ECL/5 Hit Dice (20%) for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

ABILITY SCORE MODIFIERS

+1/-1 ECL per +4/-4 total bonus to Strength, +8/-8 total bonus to Dexterity or Constitution, and +16/-16 total bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, minimum +1/-1 per grouping (i.e. an athach has Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6, which constitutes Str +16 for +4 ECL, Dex +2 and Con +10 for a +12 total for +1 ECL, Int -4, Wis +2, and Cha -4 for a -6 total for -1 ECL, giving the Athach ECL +4 total)

SPECIFIC SPECIAL ABILITIY MODIFIERS

+1 ECL per 5/+1 Damage Reduction per 4 Hit Dice
+1 ECL per point of Spell Resistance over 10 per Hit Die
+1 ECL per 5 points of Energy Resistance per Hit Die
+2 ECL per Energy Immunity
+1 ECL per 5 Fast Healing or Regeneration per 4 Hit Dice
+1 ECL per +1 Turn Resistance per 4 Hit Dice
+1 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 1st-3rd level spells
+2 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 4th-6th level spells
+3 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 7th-9th level spells
+4 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate spells of 10th level and above
+1 ECL per 20 Spellcraft DC of Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate Epic Spells
+4 ECL for Blindsight
+1 ECL per appendage over two
+1 ECL per 100% increase in movement over standard movement based on size
+(Creature's Hit Dice ECL Modifier) if the creature can summon more of its own kind, multipled by the number of times per day it may summon (i.e. a Hecatoncheires can summon another of its kind once per day, so it receives +41 ECL because it is intially ECL +41 for being an Outsider)

OTHER ABILITIES

All other Special Abilities are subject to the DM's discretion based on relative power.

For the purposes of this system, ECL equals CR in all cases. For CRs over 20, use the following table, borrowed from UK's article in Asgard 6:


ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level
21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels


This format can be continued indefinitely as ECL and CR increases.

Anyway, these are my (twice) revised expanded ECL/CR rules. What do you all think? What are your thoughts on all this, people?

 

[Kalanyr]

There should probably be some distinction made between at will spell-like abilites and 1/day/week/year ones. And also the caster level of these powers.

A Horrid Wilting cast at 5th caster level is far potent than a Fireball cast at 10th caster level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I still think any changes you have made to my system are incorrect, obviously I am not going to create a system I think is broken; so how can you expect me to agree with any of your changes!?

So far you have not convinced me any of your changes are warranted - in fact it just seems to overcomplicate matters. Added to that you still haven't given any notable examples. Lets see how your changes stand up to outlining the Pit Fiend; Solar; Great Wyrm Red Dragon; Iron Golem and Tarrasque!?

CRGreathouse has already pointed out the flaws inherent in your reasoning of trying to scale things linearly. Also I don't think many DMs would bother giving an Ogre DR 40/+4 and SR 40; maybe a 20th-level Ogre - whereupon such power is valid.

 

[Anubis]

Hi Anubis mate!

I still think any changes you have made to my system are incorrect, obviously I am not going to create a system I think is broken; so how can you expect me to agree with any of your changes!?

So far you have not convinced me any of your changes are warranted - in fact it just seems to overcomplicate matters. Added to that you still haven't given any notable examples. Lets see how your changes stand up to outlining the Pit Fiend; Solar; Great Wyrm Red Dragon; Iron Golem and Tarrasque!?

CRGreathouse has already pointed out the flaws inherent in your reasoning of trying to scale things linearly. Also I don't think many DMs would bother giving an Ogre DR 40/+4 and SR 40; maybe a 20th-level Ogre - whereupon such power is valid.

I already fixed those things. Didn't you see the 3rd version I posted?

Anyway, my way ain't perfect, but you also can't just put a blanket bonus over abilities and rate them all the same, either. Casting Light at will and Blindsight get the same bonus in your system. Obviously the two are GREATLY different levels of power.

Why don't you post your revised system and then we can compare our systems? I am willing to listen and debate as needed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I already fixed those things. Didn't you see the 3rd version I posted?

I saw it, but you have still made unwarranted (as I see it) changes to my system.

Anyway, my way ain't perfect, but you also can't just put a blanket bonus over abilities and rate them all the same, either.

On the contrary, I think you can. Abilities are merely challenges you either overcome or you don't.

Casting Light at will and Blindsight get the same bonus in your system. Obviously the two are GREATLY different levels of power.

Yet given certain circumstances each could prove useful.

Why don't you post your revised system and then we can compare our systems? I am willing to listen and debate as needed.

The only revision I have made is regarding divine power. Otherwise I have simply added new features (NPCs; Ability Scores; Size)

I still haven't seen any examples from your system: Pit Fiend; Solar; Iron Golem; Great Wyrm Red Dragon and Tarrasque and lets see how it holds up!?

 

[Anubis]

The only revision I have made is regarding divine power. Otherwise I have simply added new features (NPCs; Ability Scores; Size)

So what are those changes? How do you assign ECL for ability scores and size? (Note to self, revise rules to include size.)

Also, I have finally found a creature more powerful than the Hecatoncheires . . . PSEUDONATURAL HECATONCHEIRES! I can't think of ANY deity would would stand a chance against THAT.

WOW! What were the designers thinking when they made that template?

I still haven't seen any examples from your system: Pit Fiend; Solar; Iron Golem; Great Wyrm Red Dragon and Tarrasque and lets see how it holds up!?

Okay.

Pit Feind: ECL +36, CR 28
Solar: ECL +39, CR 29
Iron Golem: ECL +13, CR 13
Great Wyrm Red Dragon: ECL +42, CR 30
Tarrasque: ECL +33, CR 26

Like i said, good, not perfect. The pit fiend and solar are SLIGHTLY overestimated, while Tarrasque is slightly underestimated. The dragon and iron golem come out perfect, though!

How do they add up in your system? Post your revisions here, because if I do decide to concede, I need full ECL rules for m campaign. I would like to compare your revised rules with mine. I have no idea the exact changes you made, though, so comparison is impossible right now.

 

[Anubis]

Lemme try to figure this out based on what you've said and the way you normally handle things . . .

Your revised ECL rules are no different than the ones in Asgard 6, except for ability scores, NPCs, and size, correct?

Do you give +1 ECL/+5 total bonus to ability scores, and +1 ECL/2 size increase over medium?

If that is the case, do you also take away ECL for ability score penalties, and lower ECL for sizes under Medium?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

So what are those changes? How do you assign ECL for ability scores and size? (Note to self, revise rules to include size.)

Divinity.
DR0 = +14 ECL
DR1 = +24 ECL

Ability Scores.
Every +5 = +1/2 ECL

Size.
Every category increase = +1.5 ECL

NPC classes
Commoner = +1/2 ECL per level
Other NPC classes = +3/4 ECL per level

Also, I have finally found a creature more powerful than the Hecatoncheires . . . PSEUDONATURAL HECATONCHEIRES! I can't think of ANY deity would would stand a chance against THAT.

Any Greater Deity should defeat it. Likewise Thrin would beat it!

They do become CR45. However the Pseudonatural Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon has it beaten I think!

WOW! What were the designers thinking when they made that template?

It takes some watching! That Damage Reduction could easily spiral out of control - the Prismatic Great Wyrm would have 110/+23.

Okay.

Pit Feind: ECL +36, CR 28
Solar: ECL +39, CR 29
Iron Golem: ECL +13, CR 13
Great Wyrm Red Dragon: ECL +42, CR 30
Tarrasque: ECL +33, CR 26

Like i said, good, not perfect. The pit fiend and solar are SLIGHTLY overestimated, while Tarrasque is slightly underestimated. The dragon and iron golem come out perfect, though!

Nevertheless you are WAY out with the Pit Fiend; Solar and Tarrasque. Vis a vis your systems broken.

How do they add up in your system?

Pit Fiend: ECL 17/ CR 17
Solar: ECL 27/ CR 23
Iron Golem: ECL 13/ CR 13
Great Wyrm Red Dragon: ECL 38/ CR 29
Tarrasque: ECL 24/ CR 22

Post your revisions here, because if I do decide to concede, I need full ECL rules for m campaign. I would like to compare your revised rules with mine. I have no idea the exact changes you made, though, so comparison is impossible right now.

The only area I am not totally convinced with at the moment is assigning the size bonus generically. I initially thought of it as a modifier rather than a generic factor. But in many cases it seems to be appropriate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Lemme try to figure this out based on what you've said and the way you normally handle things . . .

Your revised ECL rules are no different than the ones in Asgard 6, except for ability scores, NPCs, and size, correct?

And Divinity.

Do you give +1 ECL/+5 total bonus to ability scores,

No just as a modifier, and thats +1/2 ECL per +5 ability scores

and +1 ECL/2 size increase over medium?

+1.5 ECL per size increase.

Like I mentioned before I am still undecided if this should be a generic factor or just a modifier.

ie. A Titan (Huge) should gain +3 ECL for its size if we apply it as a generic factor. Whereas if we simply use it as a modifier it gains no bonus unless we increase it to Gargantuan Size.

If that is the case, do you also take away ECL for ability score penalties, and lower ECL for sizes under Medium?

Seemingly the penalties differ for reducing sizes below medium. I'll have to review this point.

 

[Anubis]

And Divinity.

I know that. That was, however, mentioned in Asagrd 6. I'm wondering about things added to the formula.

No just as a modifier, and thats +1/2 ECL per +5 ability scores

You lost me here. Does that mean a character with 20 Strength would get +1 ECL or +0.5 ECL?

How about 10 Strength?

How about 5 Strength?

What I meant in my question is, taking the formula for finding ability score bonuses in the DMG, which is subtracting 11 from an odd number, 10 from an even number, is THAT the number you use to calculate the ECL modifier?

Please elaborate.

+1.5 ECL per size increase.

Like I mentioned before I am still undecided if this should be a generic factor or just a modifier.

ie. A Titan (Huge) should gain +3 ECL for its size if we apply it as a generic factor. Whereas if we simply use it as a modifier it gains no bonus unless we increase it to Gargantuan Size.

Honestly, I would say to apply the ECL modifier based on a creature's size in relation to Medium, because Medium is the "standard". Anything more gets mostly bonuses, anything less gets mostly penalties.

Seemingly the penalties differ for reducing sizes below medium. I'll have to review this point.

I would say make the ECL modifiers the same between ability score bonuses and penalties. For size, however, I would go with +1 ECL per size category over Medium, -0.5 ECL per size category under Medium.