Expanded ECL rules!

[Anubis]

While I'm at it, I want to address my biggest problem with your system as it is, which is with the Hit Dice ECL Modifiers.

Whatever else can be said about your system, I think you are WAY off on this part.

Let's think about it for a sec. What all do creatures get from Hit Dice, really? They get hit points, skills, feats, BAB, and saves, correct?

That said, shouldn't you assign the modifer to ECL for Hit Dice based on those five things? The hit points aren't really different between the categories, but the other four things are.

You give +3 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Constructs, Dragons, Outsiders, Plants, and Undead. That means you give their hit dice equal credit. Why do you consider these categories equal, though? Dragons get far more for their Hit Dice than Aberrations, as do Outsiders. On the other hand, Constructs get a worse BAB, no good saves at all, no skills, AND no feats. Plants aren't much better. Why do you equate them?

Also, it's worth noting that your system doesn't even rate Shapechangers at all!

Let's compare our Hit Dice ECL modifiers for a moment.

Here are yours, taken from Asgard 6:

+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Constructs, Dragon, Outsiders, Plants, and Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice for Animals, Beasts, Elementals, Fey, Giants, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Oozes
+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice for Vermin
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice for "Animated Objects" and Undead (Skeletons and Zombies)

Here are mine, taken from my most recent post about the revisions:

+4 ECL/5 Hit Dice (80%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+3 ECL/5 Hit Dice (60%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 Hit Dice (40%) for Beasts
+1 ECL/5 Hit Dice (20%) for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

Take a look at what these categories get, and you'll soon find that your estimates are way off. The modifier should be based on how much they get per Hit Die, plain and simple. Dragons and Outsiders get the most with fighter BAB and all good saves, along with lots of skills and feats. The next level has only three of those four qualities. The third tier has only two of those qualities. The fourth tier only has one of those qualities. Lastly, my fifth tier has none of those qualities.

All other debating aside, can you at least see the logic in my ECL Hit Dice modifiers? The exact modifiers themselves may or may not need tweaking, but can you at least give me credit for the groupings?

 

[Anubis]

Pit Fiend: ECL 17/ CR 17
Solar: ECL 27/ CR 23
Iron Golem: ECL 13/ CR 13
Great Wyrm Red Dragon: ECL 38/ CR 29
Tarrasque: ECL 24/ CR 22

I think you are a bit off on some of those as well.

If I had to just assign CR based on what I know, I would do it as follows.

Pit Fiend: CR 19
Soler: CR 25
Iron Golem: CR 13
Great Wyrm Red Dragon: CR 30
Tarrasque: CR 31

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

You lost me here. Does that mean a character with 20 Strength would get +1 ECL or +0.5 ECL?

How about 10 Strength?

How about 5 Strength?

No, no, no!

Its only for MODIFYING a creature.

Honestly, I would say to apply the ECL modifier based on a creature's size in relation to Medium, because Medium is the "standard". Anything more gets mostly bonuses, anything less gets mostly penalties.

Thats what I have been thinking.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

While I'm at it, I want to address my biggest problem with your system as it is, which is with the Hit Dice ECL Modifiers.

Whatever else can be said about your system, I think you are WAY off on this part.

Let's think about it for a sec. What all do creatures get from Hit Dice, really? They get hit points, skills, feats, BAB, and saves, correct?

That said, shouldn't you assign the modifer to ECL for Hit Dice based on those five things? The hit points aren't really different between the categories, but the other four things are.

You give +3 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Constructs, Dragons, Outsiders, Plants, and Undead. That means you give their hit dice equal credit. Why do you consider these categories equal, though? Dragons get far more for their Hit Dice than Aberrations, as do Outsiders. On the other hand, Constructs get a worse BAB, no good saves at all, no skills, AND no feats. Plants aren't much better. Why do you equate them?

Also, it's worth noting that your system doesn't even rate Shapechangers at all!

Let's compare our Hit Dice ECL modifiers for a moment.

Here are yours, taken from Asgard 6:

+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Constructs, Dragon, Outsiders, Plants, and Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice for Animals, Beasts, Elementals, Fey, Giants, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Oozes
+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice for Vermin
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice for "Animated Objects" and Undead (Skeletons and Zombies)

But I updated the ECLs in Asgard Issue #6 because they printed a beta version of the article. I sent them the update but they had already went to print. I already explained this (in the then Immortals Handbook thread).

I keep forgetting most people probably don't have the updated version. The fact that I had the updates ready before the article saw print means I rarely think of them as revisions.

Here are mine, taken from my most recent post about the revisions:

+4 ECL/5 Hit Dice (80%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+3 ECL/5 Hit Dice (60%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 Hit Dice (40%) for Beasts
+1 ECL/5 Hit Dice (20%) for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

Take a look at what these categories get, and you'll soon find that your estimates are way off. The modifier should be based on how much they get per Hit Die, plain and simple. Dragons and Outsiders get the most with fighter BAB and all good saves, along with lots of skills and feats. The next level has only three of those four qualities. The third tier has only two of those qualities. The fourth tier only has one of those qualities. Lastly, my fifth tier has none of those qualities.

All other debating aside, can you at least see the logic in my ECL Hit Dice modifiers? The exact modifiers themselves may or may not need tweaking, but can you at least give me credit for the groupings?

The two 'problem children' I had difficulty with were Monstrous Humanoids and Magical Beasts.

I still think:

Dragons/Outsiders = 3/4

Aberrations/Beast/Elemental/Fey/Giant/Humanoid/Magical Beast*/Monstrous Humanoid*/Shapechangers/Undead = 1/2

Animal/Construct/Plant/Ooze/Vermin = 1/3

Skeletons/Zombies = 1/4

*Though they lie somewhere in between technically they are closer to 1/2 than 3/4 - hence that reasoning.

 

[Anubis]

No, no, no!

Its only for MODIFYING a creature.

What about for new races, though? You system should take into account total stats for the base creature, not just modifications to existing creatures. I think that is where my system, the part about ability scores at least, trumps yours. My system can be used universally, not just with modifying base creastures.

Otherwise, how would you assign ECL to new races?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Otherwise, how would you assign ECL to new races?

That's easy: 1d20+3.

 

[Soldarin]

A comparison of HD costs.

Soldarin:
+0.8 /HD for Dragons and Outsiders.
+0.6 /HD for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids and Shapechangers
+0.5 /HD for Abberations, Animals, Beasts, Elementals, Fey, Giants, Humanoids and Undead
+0.4 /HD for Constructs, Oozes, Plants and Vermin

Annubis:
+4 ECL/5 Hit Dice (80%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+3 ECL/5 Hit Dice (60%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 Hit Dice (40%) for Beasts
+1 ECL/5 Hit Dice (20%) for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

Upper_Krust:
Dragons/Outsiders = 3/4
Aberrations/Beast/Elemental/Fey/Giant/Humanoid/Magical Beast*/Monstrous Humanoid*/Shapechangers/Undead = 1/2
Animal/Construct/Plant/Ooze/Vermin = 1/3
Skeletons/Zombies = 1/4

*Though they lie somewhere in between technically they are closer to 1/2 than 3/4 - hence that reasoning.
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Mostly our groupings are the same (not surprising, given that they are probably all derived from MM page 13), as are the values assigned to them. Greatest difference I see is that Annubis put the weak HD group at 1/5, where UK uses 1/3 and I use 2/5.

My reasoning for using 0.4 was that despite these HD being the worst in the book, at lower levels they still boost a PCs power significantly. Using 1/3 would not pose much of a problem in this regard, seeing as the high cost for weak powers in UK's system (all are 1/2, even fire resistance 5) would balance things out at the lower levels, and HD mean less at the higher levels. Going down to 1/5 seems too low IMHO, unless you use the minimum ECL equals HD rule at lower levels (a 10 HD intelligent vermin is not ECL +2).

But why this separation for the Zombies and Skeletons??

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Some questions about the systems proposed:
what constitutes a single power?
are racial skill bonuses considered in the system?

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Final note, my current impression is that my system more accurately reflects the old DMG values and should be used at ECLs below +10, whereas these two systems work better for the higher levels (making all powers the same value seems to compare a monster better to an equal level wizard or cleric than my static system does).

 

[Knight Otu]

That's easy: 1d20+3.

Why do you want to use the WotC method?

From the recent publications, it seems that WotC doesn't want to include Hit Dice at all in the ECL adjustments, instead adding the ECL adjustment to the total of Monster and Class hit dice. Oh well.

 

[Anubis]

That's easy: 1d20+3.

I'm trying to have a serious discussion here. Shots like that aren't needed. I would be happy to consider any actual input you decide to put into the discussion.

 

[Anubis]

The two 'problem children' I had difficulty with were Monstrous Humanoids and Magical Beasts.

Why?

I still think:

Dragons/Outsiders = 3/4

Aberrations/Beast/Elemental/Fey/Giant/Humanoid/Magical Beast*/Monstrous Humanoid*/Shapechangers/Undead = 1/2

Animal/Construct/Plant/Ooze/Vermin = 1/3

Skeletons/Zombies = 1/4

*Though they lie somewhere in between technically they are closer to 1/2 than 3/4 - hence that reasoning.

Sorry, but Magical Beasts and Monstrous Humanoids are ABOVE Aberrations, Beasts, Elementals, Fey, Giants, Humanoids, and Undead. Both Magical Beasts AND Monstrous Humanoids get Fighter BAB and two good saves, while the rest get Cleric BAB and only one good save (exceptions: Fey get Wizard BAB and two good saves, Undead get Wizard BAB and only one good save, and Beasts get Cleric BAB and two good saves while getting no feats).

You may wanna go over the numbers again. The only things that should be considered when deriving the ECL modifier for Hit Dice are BAB, saves, skills, and feats. Everything else, including special type qualities, gets covered later under the SA/SQ section.

See my point? I group them by what they get per Hit Die.