Extra Spell

[Infiniti2000]

Why do you think this? Which words say this?

What words say it doesn't? The example otherwise makes no sense at all. For example, a wizard has 'access' to every 0th-level spell out there. Do you think this feat was intended to allow players an option to circumvent restrictions on spells set by the DM? Per the rules, no spells on the class spell list are restricted to a generalist wizard, so in that vein what could this feat possibly do for a wizard, as given by the example, if not allow him access to spells outside his class spell list?

Personally, I think everyone is voting based on the FAQ and what they want the answer to be. I can see that perspective as that's how I would rule IMC, but I don't think that's the rule as written in CA.

 

[SteelDraco]

This is one of the problems with using spells and classes from different sources. IMO, if you're going to allow the Wraithstrike spell at all, it should already be on the duskblade spell list. It's designed for warrior-mages, which is what the duskblade is all about. WotC just doesn't print new spell lists for every class they've done in the past for every book that comes out. As a DM, if someone playing a duskblade asked me if they could use a spell that seemed appropriate, I'd just let them have it. I might require them to switch out another spell known for it, but that's more a problem I have with the duskblade's access to every spell on their list.

That said, as written, I don't believe the Extra Spell feat is intended to give you access to spells outside your class spell list. That's something that has to be explicity stated in the feat description - look at the Arcane Disciple feat. Since Extra Spell doesn't do that, it doesn't add spells to your class spell list.

I don't think it's an unreasonable house rule, but I don't think it's legal by the RAW.

 

[Nifft]

"For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."

This does not say you can learn a spell from outisde of your class list.

My reading of this sentence is that it says exactly that. "Unable to research" would include things that are explicitly off of your spell list.

My reading is that the feat was intended to allow Duskblades, Beguilers, Warmages and the like to expand their limited options at a relatively high cost (since those classes don't get bonus feats).

If you allow the duskblade to take wraithstrike with this feat you might as well let a wizard learn heal spells or a cleric learn fireball.

Yes. I agree. Think carefully before allowing this feat in your campaign if such things bother you. Also Arcane Disciple and so forth.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sejs]

My opinion is, that it contradicts what your friend wants.

Bye
Thanee

Bingo.

And c'mon... wraithstrike on a duskblade? Smack your friend with a rolled up newspaper. He has it coming.

 

[takasi]

What words say it doesn't?

For the duskblade they are right here:

"You cast arcane spells which are drawn from the duskblade spell list on page 98."

That's a rule. Where does it say, in this feat, that this rule does not apply to this feat?

The example otherwise makes no sense at all. For example, a wizard has 'access' to every 0th-level spell out there.

Which example? The only example I see is for a sorcerer.

Do you think this feat was intended to allow players an option to circumvent restrictions on spells set by the DM? Per the rules, no spells on the class spell list are restricted to a generalist wizard, so in that vein what could this feat possibly do for a wizard, as given by the example, if not allow him access to spells outside his class spell list?

This is what I originally posted:

"Lacks access to" may be misleading text here. There are spells on your class list that you may "lack access to". A wizard, for example, only automatically learns a specific number of spells. In order to learn additional spells he must find a scroll, spellbook or someone to teach him. If he does not have access to these things he would not be able to learn the spell.

"Unable to research" may also be misleading, but there are requirements for research: time and money. If you have neither than taking this feat would allow you to access a spell without paying for either.

Personally, I think everyone is voting based on the FAQ and what they want the answer to be. I can see that perspective as that's how I would rule IMC, but I don't think that's the rule as written in CA.

I think they are voting because the rules in CA do not say you can break the rules for drawing spells beyond a character's spell list.

 

[Stalker0]

My vote is class list only. The basic rule is that every spellcaster gets access to a certain spell list. There's nothing in the feat to contradict that imo. And considering how powerful such an addition would be, I think the feat would specifically mention other spell lists if that was intended.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I think that's it

BTW, also ask your friend to think carefully about wanting wraithstrike to actually be available in the game. Has he ever considered what a dragon with wraithstrike can do?

Like a dragon would need wraithstrike. When a dragon or many NPC's can be gimped out in the 40's to 50's AC, and then have +30 or so to hit, what can you expect.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

My opinion is, that it contradicts what your friend wants.

Agreed.

It is not on his spell list, so he can't select it. The feat is designed to let sorcerers and bards get more versatility by expanding their spells known, not to let spellcasters reach across established magical boundaries to pick and choose the best possible spells to maximize their builds.

 

[wildstarsreach]

What words say it doesn't? The example otherwise makes no sense at all. For example, a wizard has 'access' to every 0th-level spell out there. Do you think this feat was intended to allow players an option to circumvent restrictions on spells set by the DM? Per the rules, no spells on the class spell list are restricted to a generalist wizard, so in that vein what could this feat possibly do for a wizard, as given by the example, if not allow him access to spells outside his class spell list?

Personally, I think everyone is voting based on the FAQ and what they want the answer to be. I can see that perspective as that's how I would rule IMC, but I don't think that's the rule as written in CA.

I think that the Faq needs to re-evaluate their decision and if they come to the same decision, errata this feat with a better wording.

The above is why it implies that it would be from other lists. I will however concede that to broad a interpretation, leaves divine as a possiblity. For arcane casters it would only be arcane spells and for divine casters it would be divine spells. Some domain spell are not accessable to clerics.

By the way I'm the friend that Takasi is talking about.

Here's the situation, we are 4th level and there are only 5 feats between this and 20th level. If I were to use a feat on this it would have to be important enough to forgo combat feats that may be critical to survival.

 

[wildstarsreach]

My vote is class list only. The basic rule is that every spellcaster gets access to a certain spell list. There's nothing in the feat to contradict that imo. And considering how powerful such an addition would be, I think the feat would specifically mention other spell lists if that was intended.

Again as mentioned, why would they put "For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research." when wizards always have access to all the wizard/sorcerer spells.

This seems either the writer didnt think about english or the rules. Now with the current FAQ ruling making a clarification, I'll live with that but it is a bad wording then on the feat by it's author.