fair variant?: swap rogue's traps for bard's lore

[Driddle]

Proposed adaptation: Rogue character loses his trap-related abilities and instead gains the bard's lore ability. Fair and balanced swap?

 

[Trainz]

I'd say yes.

I would allow that house rule.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'd say the rogue is getting the short end of the stick. But, then again I use a lot of fairly deadly traps. Bardic Lore isn't to be underestemated, but my players would be far too scared to take that option. I'd allow it if they did though.

 

[Crothian]

I actually think the bardic lore ability is more powerful. The trap sense depends entirely on the DM, but Bardic lore is solely in the hands of the player and he can make more use of it.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I actually think the bardic lore ability is more powerful. The trap sense depends entirely on the DM, but Bardic lore is solely in the hands of the player and he can make more use of it.

I disagree. Bardic Lore is very much in the hands of the DM. If the DM doesn't want it to be effective in a particular case, then it won't be effective. Of couse, likewise if there are no traps, then the trap skills won't be effective.

How many traps do you run into that have a DC search higher than 20? Most of my traps are over DC 20 by level 5. You're looking at all traps becoming nearly impossible to detect. In addition to the bonuses from Trap Sense being taken away, this becomes a PC killer, even if traps are used extremely sparingly.

I suppose it depends on the DM. My players hate to not have a rogue in the party because of traps, but Gather Information has always sufficed when a bard isn't present.

 

[Crothian]

A bard player can at any point make a bardic lore check to get some information. Now the DM can chhose to hamper this ability and make the information useless or take the easy way out be saying he knows little of stories or legends on the matter at hand. But trapsense the player can't choose to use whenever he wants. It is very specific when it can be used and the player hjas no control on it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't consider it a fair swap. The ability to search for traps (and get a limited bonus on ref saving throws against traps) is a liability, I can imagine almost any rogue being glad to not get that ability! Any normal rogue that doesn't put skill points into search effectively doesn't have it anyway.

For something as useful as Bardic Knowledge I'd be looking for a more significant swap - perhaps losing uncanny dodge or evasion, or halving his sneak attack progression.

 

[Terath Ninir]

It'd be a pure gimmee in most of my campaigns. Traps come up so rarely that the ability has little use. They'd have to throw trap sense in with the deal for me to swap it out.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I would allow it, and I'm not a big traps person (and I am a big knowledge person).

 

[Undead Lincoln]

I wouldn't for the following reason. The type of rogue that would take bardic lore instead of trapfinding would not get much out of trapfinding. They are probably not taking the search skill to save skill points for social or other skills. Bardic lore is a pure extra ability for this rogue. They don't need to spend skill points and will get useful information from time to time. I never allow a character to give up something useless for any type of bonus.