Fairness Point-Buy and rolls other than stats

[ichabod]

Not true, more like 28-29 point buy (yes,I know the DMG says otherwise. Monte Cook can't count as well as he does game design apparently).

Actually, a 28 point buy will only give you the lower half of 4d6 drop low. To achieve what can reasonably be expected of 4d6 drop low, you need to go up to at least 38.

 

[Henry]

Actually, a 28 point buy will only give you the lower half of 4d6 drop low. To achieve what can reasonably be expected of 4d6 drop low, you need to go up to at least 38.

Are you certain of this? The average scores given for 4d6 drop low is approximately 12.25 or so, which equates out to about one 13 and 5 12's. One 13 and 5 12's could be attained from 25 point buy, and a 38 point buy would give at least a 14 in every stat, or thorough min-maxing for about three 16's, a 2 14's, and a 10.

RARELY does one receive up to three 16's, two 14's, and a 10 through 4d6 drop low, though even considering the graduated scale, more common scores are closer to a 28-point buy or so. A 38 point buy creates extremely strong characters, which 4d6 drop low rarely does. In my history of using that rolling method, I've generated maybe two characters with 18's, and only one of those had no scores below 12.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Hey, the expectation for the original 3d6 method was 10.5 in each stat (18 point buy). 25 points is generous!

 

[tmaaas]

I don't have a strong preference either way in the point-buy vs. rolled debate, except when designing characters 'away from the table.' Then I strongly prefer point-buy just to eliminate any possible doubts about honesty in rolling.

This is true when preparing for a game with people I don't know, such as a game day or new campaign (which I recently started in--new DM and three new players I hadn't met before).

On another note, one idea I've had is to randomly generate 100 sets of stats in 3d6 rolled order (easy to do with a computer). Then the player can pick which set of stats they want for their character.

-tmaaas

 

[Conaill]

Actually, a 28 point buy will only give you the lower half of 4d6 drop low. To achieve what can reasonably be expected of 4d6 drop low, you need to go up to at least 38.

That is most definitely wrong. If you do the statistics, IIRC 4d6-drop-lowest averages out to about 29 point-buy.

Add to that the fact that point-buy will give you a lot more flexibility (and thus power) in how to assign stats, and that most people will tend to pick even stats using point-buy, and I think it's entirely fair to say that 4d6-drop-lowest is balanced with 25 point-buy.

 

[Conaill]

Point buy! Select the same starting number for the player, and add a d4 points.

A little Random) 26 + 2D6 Point Buy

IMHO, this sort of point-buy with a randomized total combines the WORST aspects of point-buy and rolled stats!

It leads to imbalance between the characters, because of the difference in point-buy value (although perhaps lower that with randomly rolled stats - would need to do the statistics to verify that), while simultaneously allowing the players to completely min-max their stat allocation.

I much prefer methods that have the exact opposite effect: generate somewhat randomized stats that are still balanced with each other. Here are some options:

1) Someone (I keep forgetting who - sorry!) suggested taking a deck of cards and throwing out all but the 1-6 cards. Then deal 6 stacks of 4 cards, and drop the lowest card from each stack. Very elegant, and inherently much more balanced that dice rolls.

2) Roll stats, then adjust up or down to a desired point-buy value. If you need to adjust downwards you can only decrease stats and vice versa. Perfectly point-buy balanced, big random component to make things interesting, and to keep stats that look "natural", but allows a little optimization.

3) Roll only 3 stats. The remaining 3 are equal to 25 (or 27, or higher) minus the first three. Completely random stats, but for each high stat you get a low one, there's always 3 odd and 3 even stats, and the total of the stats is always balanced.

 

[ichabod]

Are you certain of this? The average scores given for 4d6 drop low is approximately 12.25 or so, which equates out to about one 13 and 5 12's. One 13 and 5 12's could be attained from 25 point buy, and a 38 point buy would give at least a 14 in every stat, or thorough min-maxing for about three 16's, a 2 14's, and a 10.

If you run the ordinal probabilities, the median scores come out to 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9. That means 50% of the time, your highest roll will be at least a 16. The cost of those median values in point buy is 28 points. But again, those are median scores. You have almost a 1 in 3 chance of getting a 17 or 18 as your best roll. That gets you up to 31. You have a one in 10 chance of getting an 18, which puts you up to 34. And that assumes all the other rolls are normal.

The thing is, since the point buy is not 1:1, you have to take into account that if you roll six times you expect to get some high rolls and some low rolls, not six average rolls.

Edit: The abilities above don't take into account reroll conditions. If you take those into account, the 10 should be an 11, and you get a 29 point buy.

 

[ichabod]

That is most definitely wrong. If you do the statistics, IIRC 4d6-drop-lowest averages out to about 29 point-buy.

Add to that the fact that point-buy will give you a lot more flexibility (and thus power) in how to assign stats, and that most people will tend to pick even stats using point-buy, and I think it's entirely fair to say that 4d6-drop-lowest is balanced with 25 point-buy.

First of all, it's not most definately wrong. Second of all, they're probabilities, not statistics.
Edit: After thinking about it, you may be talking about statistics. I just never heard "run the statistics," but "run the probabilities" comes up alot.

As I said, if you go by the average of point buy, you are only representing the average or worse, you are not representing anything better than average. I was pointing out that if you want to take in more than half of the characters generated with 4d6 drop low, you have to go to a higher point buy.

And I completely disagree with the statement that 4d6 drop low is comprable with 25 point buy. You gain very little flexibility over 4d6 drop, since you can rearrange the 4d6 drop anyway you want. What you get is worse abilities, which you can lower some to raise others. Well, that means you still end up with worse abilities. This is exacerbated by the higher cost of raising abilities, compared to the benefit of lowering abilities.

 

[Grazzt]

But what if you had no specialty? None at all. In fact, even normal shmoes off the street at better at you in a random field.

Randomized stats are just too random for me. If you had a game where one character rolls a 18, 17, 18, 16, 18, 14 and another rolls a 6, 9, 11, 5, 13, 8, how much fun do you really think the second player will have when he is so drastically weak?

Well, if you as DM (or your DM) uses the rules as written regarding ability scores and rolling them, the second player (the one with the lower scores) gets to roll again. Check page 4 in the 3.0 PHB, under Ability Scores. "Your scores are considered too low if your total modifiers (before changes according to race) are 0 or less, or if your highest score is 13 or lower."

The second guy gets to roll again.

As for the rest of the topic in this thread, my players decided back near the beginning of 3e that they wanted to try the point-buy method, so we did. They didnt it and we "rolled" back to 4d6-drop-lowest. (Perhaps its because all my players are 1e vets as well and they just arent comfortable with any other method, who knows. )

 

[Zappo]

Ok, I think the original example was very hyperbolic... people don't choose point buy because they hate randomness, they choose point buy because they like fairness.

Randomness in character creation (and advancement - see hit points) has nothing to do with randomness during gameplay.

During character creation, a very small numbers of rolls has a huge influence on the whole life of the character. Any probability fluke that happens during that time will never even out, it will always be a permanent penalty or bonus, which doesn't have a purpose.

If I wanted people to roleplay characters of different strengths, I would give them different amounts of points. If someone is to be permanently stronger than someone else, it will be because I want it, not because of chance.

During gameplay, fairness instead is guaranteed by the law of large numbers. Yeah, sometimes you feel like you're rolling all 3s, but in 10 sessions' time, you'll have rolled an average of 10-11 just like everyone else.