Faiths & Pantheons? WTF?
- Thread starter ThomasBJJ
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Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
But then that begs the question. IF statting a 56 level wizard/fighter/cleric/rogue is considered limiting BECAUSE he only has core classes, should we then feel the same way about gods? The trouble with stats, ISN'T that they are limiting BUT they present us with IDEAS on making MORE powerful types of gods, some whom might not even BE gods.
Mortals are supposed to have limitations, but part of the deal of being a god is that at least some of those limitations don't apply to you (if not all). Stats are all about defining capabilities, and by side effect also defining limitations.
The problem as I see it with statting gods is that you have to ask the question, where does the buck stop?
If the gods can't do it because the stats restrict them, who are you going to stat (and therefore restrict) next? Lord Ao? The DM?
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
AO though already has stats, at least in DR. He's an overgod.
As for not limiting as mortals, well there are some exceptional mortals that are immune to disease, or to supernatural fear spells. Then there are though that hunt strange and unusual monsters. Gods themselves aren't limited, they just conform to a standard belief and follow along with it. Gods are limited though. I've yet to see a god destroy the multiverse. Or destroy a lots of multiverses. My point here is, they are already limited BECAUSE they interact with mortals on a fundamental level. Forces like nature, elementals things, they are not themselves confined to such things IF you eliminate things like mortality and ethics. That's why things like the Old Ones are scary, they don't necessary BE evil, they just are. Gods follow a format BECAUSE they are representive of ideals, thoughts and beliefs.
As for not limiting as mortals, well there are some exceptional mortals that are immune to disease, or to supernatural fear spells. Then there are though that hunt strange and unusual monsters. Gods themselves aren't limited, they just conform to a standard belief and follow along with it. Gods are limited though. I've yet to see a god destroy the multiverse. Or destroy a lots of multiverses. My point here is, they are already limited BECAUSE they interact with mortals on a fundamental level. Forces like nature, elementals things, they are not themselves confined to such things IF you eliminate things like mortality and ethics. That's why things like the Old Ones are scary, they don't necessary BE evil, they just are. Gods follow a format BECAUSE they are representive of ideals, thoughts and beliefs.
I'm not quite sure if you're addressing the issue directly, Nightfall.
If the gods can't do something that you as DM want them to do because the stats say it's not within their capability, you've got no-one to turn to - except the next overgod up the ladder who lacks stats, such as Ao, and I doubt you can find roleplaying justification for his intervention in most mortal matters.
I'm sure overgods are busy with far too many other things beyond the ken of mortals (let alone gods) to bother helping out with some miracle that none of the gods in the entire pantheon can technically do due to the restrictions inherent in statting them, but which you need done for story purposes.
So in short - stats for avatars I can see a purpose for. Stats for the capabilities of the gods themselves beyond the abstract (a DR perhaps, or the system of "lesser", "greater" etc. and portfolio) just serves to limit their usefulness to the DM with regard to acting in the campaign as catspaws or mcguffins - and raises the question, "If the gods can't do it, who can?"
If the gods can't do something that you as DM want them to do because the stats say it's not within their capability, you've got no-one to turn to - except the next overgod up the ladder who lacks stats, such as Ao, and I doubt you can find roleplaying justification for his intervention in most mortal matters.
I'm sure overgods are busy with far too many other things beyond the ken of mortals (let alone gods) to bother helping out with some miracle that none of the gods in the entire pantheon can technically do due to the restrictions inherent in statting them, but which you need done for story purposes.
So in short - stats for avatars I can see a purpose for. Stats for the capabilities of the gods themselves beyond the abstract (a DR perhaps, or the system of "lesser", "greater" etc. and portfolio) just serves to limit their usefulness to the DM with regard to acting in the campaign as catspaws or mcguffins - and raises the question, "If the gods can't do it, who can?"
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SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
You know, Rounser, I think that I entirely agree with you!
There are many reasons that I can think of why it is unnecessary to stat up gods. As you mentioned, "Avatars" can be quite useful, and appropriate to stat up for a variety of circumstances. However, to what point is there in even "defining" gods? Gods are *Gods* To show how ridiculous that sounds, look at this:
Assuming it is reasonably possible for a mortal--a human, say,--to reach a 30 strength. Isn't it strange that a human, a mortal, no matter how powerful, can approach within a mathematical quantification the strength of a God? Gods are theoretically entirely beyond the scope and comprehension of mortals. Gods are so far beyond the comprehension of puny, limited, finite-seeing, handicapped mortal minds that there isn't any comparrison.
By defining gods thusly, one puts a mortal, limited form upon them. By expressing this limitation, of whatever number, then the god in question can be therefore defeated in detail by some strategem or concert of actions. That distinct possibility--of befalling a god--just seems counter-intuitive, you know?
Again, avatars are fine, but why is it really necessary to stat up gods? You know, it's funny. I have been running a Rolemaster campaign for several years, and even though there are characters up to 70, 80, 90th level, and immensely powerful, they never *once* physically encountered a God! That's in several years of real-time of playing! I never once had the necessity to even know the stats of a god. It was entirely unnecessary. Plainly put--if a god had any such kind of limitations, it would be beyond the characters ability to know it, and even if they somehow did, the god would still, even with whatever kind of limitations that a *god* would have, still possess the ability to utterly annihilate the entire character party in a blink of an eye--no die roll needed, saves are all failed, *snap*--they're done. Time to roll up new characters! That never happened, as I said, but the point being, what real use are *stats* for gods? How are they relevant?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You know, Rounser, I think that I entirely agree with you!
There are many reasons that I can think of why it is unnecessary to stat up gods. As you mentioned, "Avatars" can be quite useful, and appropriate to stat up for a variety of circumstances. However, to what point is there in even "defining" gods? Gods are *Gods* To show how ridiculous that sounds, look at this:Assuming it is reasonably possible for a mortal--a human, say,--to reach a 30 strength. Isn't it strange that a human, a mortal, no matter how powerful, can approach within a mathematical quantification the strength of a God? Gods are theoretically entirely beyond the scope and comprehension of mortals. Gods are so far beyond the comprehension of puny, limited, finite-seeing, handicapped mortal minds that there isn't any comparrison.
By defining gods thusly, one puts a mortal, limited form upon them. By expressing this limitation, of whatever number, then the god in question can be therefore defeated in detail by some strategem or concert of actions. That distinct possibility--of befalling a god--just seems counter-intuitive, you know?
Again, avatars are fine, but why is it really necessary to stat up gods? You know, it's funny. I have been running a Rolemaster campaign for several years, and even though there are characters up to 70, 80, 90th level, and immensely powerful, they never *once* physically encountered a God! That's in several years of real-time of playing! I never once had the necessity to even know the stats of a god. It was entirely unnecessary. Plainly put--if a god had any such kind of limitations, it would be beyond the characters ability to know it, and even if they somehow did, the god would still, even with whatever kind of limitations that a *god* would have, still possess the ability to utterly annihilate the entire character party in a blink of an eye--no die roll needed, saves are all failed, *snap*--they're done. Time to roll up new characters! That never happened, as I said, but the point being, what real use are *stats* for gods? How are they relevant?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
well, there are gods, and then there are gods.
if your campaign is based on something like the Greek myths, stats for gods are perfectly reasonable. there are many examples in the myths of powerful mortal heroes besting the gods in combat or through trickery.
however, if your gods are more like the Islamo-Judeo-Christian notion of a deity, then stats are completely unnecessary and pointless.
it all comes down to what type of cosmology you want to run. neither way is intrinsically better than the other -- they both yield rich story potential and can make interesting backdrops for a campaign world.
if your campaign is based on something like the Greek myths, stats for gods are perfectly reasonable. there are many examples in the myths of powerful mortal heroes besting the gods in combat or through trickery.
however, if your gods are more like the Islamo-Judeo-Christian notion of a deity, then stats are completely unnecessary and pointless.
it all comes down to what type of cosmology you want to run. neither way is intrinsically better than the other -- they both yield rich story potential and can make interesting backdrops for a campaign world.
Speaking for myself:
Well, neither really. The Norse gods were perhaps too restricted and limited, for instance, to reflect how (from what I've seen) most people depict their D&D pantheons, and Yahweh, Allah etc. are somewhat on the way too powerful side...
I envision the "iconic D&D pantheon" as taking a middle path, whereby each god has limitations in some areas (e.g. stupidity, vanity, a physical weakness etc.) and potential omnipotency in other areas (i.e. their portfolio) with caveats (such as the "Greyhawk intervention paradigm", whereby gods don't intervene directly much because doing so opens the door for their peers on the other side of the alignment compass to take equivalent action). I also think that there shouldn't be any miracle that affects the mortal world that no-one in the pantheon can't do, that collectively they have all their bases covered - this is part of deal of why the gods earn the title "gods", and the status "divine".
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