D&D 5E Features to support every stat for generic classes?

[TwoSix]

Quick description: One concept I've been working on sporadically for my next game is a conversion of Beyond the Wall (BtW) to 5e. If you don't know the game, BtW is an OSR-like game that uses detailed playbooks to generate characters who are all young heroes from the same village, with the general feel of Prydain Chronicles or Wizard of Earthsea.

One of the things I like about the playbooks is that they make very organic characters; you might end up with a warrior from the Village Watch with a 17 Wisdom and training in Herbalism, or a Witch's Apprentice Mage with 16 Strength and Charisma who only knows the Unseen Servant ritual. It also only has 3 classes; Warrior, Rogue and Mage.

What I intend to do is to generate the character using the playbooks, and then convert them to 5e using the generic classes introduced in the Unearthed Arcana Sidekicks article, with some minor tweaking. My current sticking point is this:

I want to have each class have a unique mechanical support for each stat, so that a high Charisma warrior is as useful in combat as high Strength warrior, and a high Strength mage has as much capability for magic as a high Intelligence mage. But, I also want them to be expressed differently. While I have no problem with stat replacement as a last resort, I'd like to develop features that leverage the concept of the stat into distinct thematic abilities.

To support this, I'm using the following base rule changes:

a) When using a weapon you have proficiency in, you may substitute your proficiency modifier for your Strength or Dexterity modifier in the attack and damage rolls. (This makes high Str or Dex a useful bonus at low levels, but only by a small amount.)
b) When wearing armor you are proficient in or unarmored, you may use your proficiency bonus in place of your Dexterity modifier.
c) You use Wisdom as the modifying stat for Initiative rolls.
d) For Mages, you use Intelligence + level to determine the number of spells you can prepare, and Charisma to determine the Spell attack modifier and Spell save DC.

tl;dr: What sort of features can make Cha warriors, Con rogues, and Str mages viable in a game with 3 generic classes?

 

[NotAYakk]

How about 6 archtypes per class?
Warrior Str: Great Weapon
Warrior Dex: Archer
Warrior Con: Heavy Armor
Warrior Int: Logistics
Warrior Wis: Tactics
Warrior Cha: Bravura

Rogue Str: Thug
Rogue Dex: Swashbuckler
Rogue Con: Alchemist
Rogue Int: Mastermind
Rogue Wis: Scout
Rogue Cha: Bard

Mage Str: Fire
Mage Dex: Air
Mage Con: Earth
Mage Int: Water
Mage Wis: Craft
Mage Cha: Illusion

 

[Tony Vargas]

tl;dr: What sort of features can make Cha warriors, Con rogues, and Str mages viable in a game with 3 generic classes?

I'm left wondering what the point of folding Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, & Wizard into 'Mage' and Fighter, Monk, Barbarian, Ranger & Paladin into 'Warrior,' but leaving Rogue it's own thing is? I mean, I can totally see Paladin & Ranger and a lot of other things being done just MCing between a Warrior and a caster of some sort. But, in 5e, where a Warrior can go DEX as easily as STR, and everyone gets skills, the Rogue making the Final Three just doesn't seem right.

Anyway. You could do the 13A 'middle stat' thing.

Warrior:
Attack: Middle stat of STR, CHA, DEX
Damage: Middle stat of STR, CON, CHA
AC bonus: Middle stat of DEX, INT, WIS

Mage:
Spell Attack: Middle stat of INT, DEX, CHA
Save DC: Middle stat of INT, WIS, CHA
Spells known: Middle stat of INT, WIS, CON

etc...

I want to have each class have a unique mechanical support for each stat, so that a high Charisma warrior is as useful in combat as high Strength warrior, and a high Strength mage has as much capability for magic as a high Intelligence mage. But, I also want them to be expressed differently.

I guess you'd really need to find 6 equally-important-yet-ultimately-dispensable things for each class to 'need.' That seems a tall order.

Currently, in 5e:

Warrior:
STR: melee/thrown attack/damage
DEX: finesse/missile attack/dam, AC
CON: hp
INT/WIS/CHA: nuth'n.

Mage:
INT: spell attack, DC, spells known, Arcana skill
DEX: AC
CON: hp
WIS/CHA: nuth'n

Rogue:
DEX: finesse/missile attack/dam, AC, Stealth, Thieves' Tools, Acrobatics,
CON: hp
INT: Investigation
WIS: Perception
CHA: Streetwise
STR: nuth'n

….hmmm...

 

[TwoSix]

How about 6 archtypes per class?
Warrior Str: Great Weapon
Warrior Dex: Archer
Warrior Con: Heavy Armor
Warrior Int: Logistics
Warrior Wis: Tactics
Warrior Cha: Bravura

Rogue Str: Thug
Rogue Dex: Swashbuckler
Rogue Con: Alchemist
Rogue Int: Mastermind
Rogue Wis: Scout
Rogue Cha: Bard

Mage Str: Fire
Mage Dex: Air
Mage Con: Earth
Mage Int: Water
Mage Wis: Craft
Mage Cha: Illusion

Hmm, I like several of these. Brainstorming on some the warrior concepts:

Str Warrior: Power Attack: You can subtract your Strength modifier from your attack roll. If you do, add double your Strength modifier to the damage roll.

Con Warrior: While wearing your medium or heavy armor, you reduce the amount of slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage you take by an amount equal to your Constitution modifier.

Int Warrior: When you take the Attack action, in place of making an attack, you can grant an ally within 30 feet of you an additional attack the next time they take the Attack action during their turn. If they do not take the Attack action of their next turn, the additional attack is lost.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm left wondering what the point of folding Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, & Wizard into 'Mage' and Fighter, Monk, Barbarian, Ranger & Paladin into 'Warrior,' but leaving Rogue it's own thing is? I mean, I can totally see Paladin & Ranger and a lot of other things being done just MCing between a Warrior and a caster of some sort. But, in 5e, where a Warrior can go DEX as easily as STR, and everyone gets skills, the Rogue making the Final Three just doesn't seem right.

A fair point. Rogue is just the rename of the sidekick expert class, it's intended to be the support class. It gets the ability to do Help as a bonus action, as well as multiple skill expertise. Warrior and Rogue will also get half-caster progression, but don't learn spells or have a spellbook natively. Magic, at least in the beginning, is primarily ritualistic and shamanistic, lots of crafting potions and wands and scribing scrolls. The normal divisions between casters don't really exist. Paladin and Ranger would be more of a "prestige class" as I'm envisioning them, something you have to discover and dedicate the character to.

Oh, and Barbarian Rage or equivalent might not make a bad Con feature. Something like "When battle starts, you can choose to enter a battle frenzy, allowing you to make an extra weapon as a bonus action. This battle frenzy lasts for 1 minute, after which you gain one level of exhaustion. You can ignore levels of exhaustion equal to your Constitution modifier."

Anyway. You could do the 13A 'middle stat' thing.

Warrior:
Attack: Middle stat of STR, CHA, DEX
Damage: Middle stat of STR, CON, CHA
AC bonus: Middle stat of DEX, INT, WIS

Mage:
Spell Attack: Middle stat of INT, DEX, CHA
Save DC: Middle stat of INT, WIS, CHA
Spells known: Middle stat of INT, WIS, CON

etc...

I do like the 13A stat approach, but I don't like the feel for this particular game. I want getting a high stat to feel meaningful, as you generally end up with high stats in the 14-16 range from the playbooks.

I guess you'd really need to find 6 equally-important-yet-ultimately-dispensable things for each class to 'need.' That seems a tall order.

Oh, it's absolutely tricky, which is why I'm asking for help! I'm not even sure if it's 100% feasible, but I think with enough brainstorming I can hack something together.

Currently, in 5e:

Warrior:
STR: melee/thrown attack/damage
DEX: finesse/missile attack/dam, AC
CON: hp
INT/WIS/CHA: nuth'n.

Mage:
INT: spell attack, DC, spells known, Arcana skill
DEX: AC
CON: hp
WIS/CHA: nuth'n

Rogue:
DEX: finesse/missile attack/dam, AC, Stealth, Thieves' Tools, Acrobatics,
CON: hp
INT: Investigation
WIS: Perception
CHA: Streetwise
STR: nuth'n

….hmmm...

I feel like Warlord stuff might fit for Int/Wis/Cha warriors, bard stuff for Cha rogue, maybe a spellbook for Int Rogues (Int Rogue would fit as a Sage type, Cha rogue as a negotiator). Physical Mage is the tough one, for me. I'm thinking of how 4e sorcerers got Str and Dex as secondaries as kind of an archetype there, with their magic being the reason they're strong/dextrous in the first place. Some kind of focus on buffing or transmutation magic. Or maybe some gish features?

 

[Tony Vargas]

..

I feel like Warlord stuff might fit for Int/Wis/Cha warriors, bard stuff for Cha rogue, maybe a spellbook for Int Rogues (Int Rogue would fit as a Sage type, Cha rogue as a negotiator). Physical Mage is the tough one, for me. I'm thinking of how 4e sorcerers got Str and Dex as secondaries as kind of an archetype there, with their magic being the reason they're strong/dextrous in the first place. Some kind of focus on buffing or transmutation magic. Or maybe some gish features?

So you're willing to go fairly deep into lifting and/or creating various features for each class?

Oh, and Barbarian Rage or equivalent might not make a bad Con feature.

I suppose, since you're sorta using consolidated/simplified classes, you could pull abilities from regular classes based on a stat prerequisite? 3 consolidated classes, 6 stats, you'd only have to pick out 18 features. Like, a high-CON rogue could pull the Ranger's "Natural Explorer" or a high-CON mage the wizard's Arcane Recovery?

 

[TwoSix]

..
So you're willing to go fairly deep into lifting and/or creating various features for each class?
I suppose, since you're sorta using consolidated/simplified classes, you could pull abilities from regular classes based on a stat prerequisite? 3 consolidated classes, 6 stats, you'd only have to pick out 18 features. Like, a high-CON rogue could pull the Ranger's "Natural Explorer" or a high-CON mage the wizard's Arcane Recovery?

Oh, absolutely. I'm using the 5e skeleton (spell lists, equipment list, skills, proficiency system) but the class design is completely different. The sidekick classes are just a starting point.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Pillars of Eternity has a six-stat system that approaches your goals.

Might improves all damage, even spells.
Constitution does what it always does.
Dexterity improves action speed.
Perception improves all attack rolls (and you roll to attack with spells rather than force saving throws, a la 4E) and the chance to interrupt enemy actions.
Intellect improves all effect durations and areas.
And Resolve improves Deflection (AC) and the chance to resist interruption.

It's a fascinating system, where you can build a barbarian with INT > MIG and a wizard with MIG > INT and make a good argument that those were the correct calls.

Details: Attributes

 

[Horwath]

or reduce 6 abilites to 4.

Strength(STR): melee and thrown attack and damage, bonus HPs, Ability to wear heavier armour, FORT saves, Athletics,

Dexterity(DEX): finesse and ranged attack and damage, AC, REF saves, Initiative, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery,

Willpower(WILL): spell attack, damage and DCs, bonus spells(if any), WILL saves, Concentration,

Cunning(CUNN): Bonus languages, Bonus skills, Bonus tools, Initiative, Arcana, History, Nature, Religion, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival, Deception, Intimidation, Persuation, Perform.

This way you concentrate the value of every ability(except dex, but it is concentrated enough already), so dumping will hurt you more.

 

[TwoSix]

or reduce 6 abilites to 4.

Strength(STR): melee and thrown attack and damage, bonus HPs, Ability to wear heavier armour, FORT saves, Athletics,

Dexterity(DEX): finesse and ranged attack and damage, AC, REF saves, Initiative, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery,

Willpower(WILL): spell attack, damage and DCs, bonus spells(if any), WILL saves, Concentration,

Cunning(CUNN): Bonus languages, Bonus skills, Bonus tools, Initiative, Arcana, History, Nature, Religion, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival, Deception, Intimidation, Persuation, Perform.

This way you concentrate the value of every ability(except dex, but it is concentrated enough already), so dumping will hurt you more.

A nice idea, but then I can't use the Beyond the Wall playbooks, which is one of the driving concepts of the game.