D&D 5E Few questions on how to build a Samurai for this edition

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It's one of those American made myths we have, like the ninja. Ninja in history didn't wear all black jammies. They dressed in whatever clothing made them blend in.

Aww man, next you'll be telling me that Ninja III: The Domination WASNT a historical documentary and that ninjas cant jump kick a helicopter into exploding! (for those who havent seen it, the golf course assault is one of the finest pieces of action movie cheese ever)

 

[ExploderWizard]

Aww man, next you'll be telling me that Ninja III: The Domination WASNT a historical documentary and that ninjas cant jump kick a helicopter into exploding! (for those who havent seen it, the golf course assault is one of the finest pieces of action movie cheese ever)

How did those cops not shoot each other? They were all standing in a circle shooting wildly at the ninja. Lucinda Dickey possessed by an evil ninja was awesome.

For ninja cheese I actually prefer Revenge of the Ninja. The final fight sequences from that one certainly had more LOL per inch of film than any other.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

7.33 vs 7.5!! OMG!!! That longsword guy is squeezing out an average of .17 more damage per attack!!

Are you familiar with the term "in the noise"? The effect this difference has on game play is a textbook example.

It's not about the degree of effect, it is about the presence of it on principle. If you take the style intended for two-handed use, the greataxe--a two-handed only weapon--correctly does more damage than the longsword. If you change the rule then the longsword is not only effective in one-hand, but now outdoes the greataxe at its own game--two-handed use--and it is still effective in one-hand. If that is fine with your group, then go for it. But it would grate on me a lot more than the greatsword being superior to the greataxe.

The alternative method of handling it is just to allow the player to describe using their dueling longsword in two-hands for some of their attacks, but mechanically treating it as normal (ie, d8+2).

Except it then out damages great axes and, by a hair, great swords.

I thought the great weapon class feature option was poor and I think it's because power attack in Great weapon mastery more than makes up for it.

Applying the Dueling style d10 longsword won't actually out damage the greatsword with Great Weapon Style, as the greatsword does 8.33 damage (yes, 1 full point higher than the greataxe).

 

[mlund]

I guess it all depends on how you want to role-play it.

If you actually want to implement a culturally conscious samurai in role-playing your fighter then you need to be able to handle a horse and fight from horseback at range and close combat.

Your katana has ceremonial significance and is not your primary adventuring weapon if you're in a war or wilderness type adventure setting. It is for personal combat with peers without armor (duels) and personal defense when you aren't traveling otherwise under arms. It's also very handy for carving up lightly-armored peasant infantry if your spear gets stuck in someone and you have to discard it. On a battlefield your bow and some sort of spear (yari), glaive (naginata), or great sword (no-dachi) are your go-to weapons. You might even want to consider some sort of pole-axe or maul (Dai Tsuchi) if you are supposed to be fighting heavily armored opponents.

Battle Master is definitely the way to go if you want that flair for bad-ass maneuvers during the fight. The suggestions of being open to Ranger, Paladin, or Barbarian options are also perfectly valid as ways to explore different odd-ball combat styles open to the samurai - a dead-eyed berserker, two-sword kensai, or some sort of devoted warrior-mystic are all viable spins on the noble warrior cast.

Of course, this only really applies if you're going for the warrior archetype of the early and middle periods. These skills became less pervasive as the Samurai became more of the bureaucratic class in the later Edo period. Plenty of people still practiced, but there was a larger population of people who couldn't fight effectively on horseback, only specialized in unarmored dueling, etc. among the samurai caste.

Marty Lund

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's not about the degree of effect, it is about the presence of it on principle. If you take the style intended for two-handed use, the greataxe--a two-handed only weapon--correctly does more damage than the longsword. If you change the rule then the longsword is not only effective in one-hand, but now outdoes the greataxe at its own game--two-handed use--and it is still effective in one-hand. If that is fine with your group, then go for it. But it would grate on me a lot more than the greatsword being superior to the greataxe.

The alternative method of handling it is just to allow the player to describe using their dueling longsword in two-hands for some of their attacks, but mechanically treating it as normal (ie, d8+2).



Applying the Dueling style d10 longsword won't actually out damage the greatsword with Great Weapon Style, as the greatsword does 8.33 damage (yes, 1 full point higher than the greataxe).

I am too busy myself, but does the 7.33 vs 7.50 account for critical hits? I guess not, but that could make up for that difference!

Ok, I did a quick research, and assuming a hit on a 10 and a crit only at natural 20, I found out, that both the greataxe with greatweapon style an the lonsword, two handed with (advanced) duelist style do an average of 4.4 damage per attack.
So actually, even though a longsword two hande with +2 damage seems better, the greataxe can still keep up.

If your hit chance is lower, the greataxe gets better, if your hit chance gets better, the longsword is ahead... by 0.0X damage per attack on average.

A champion, hitting critical at 19-20, will do more damage per attack with the greataxe.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I am too busy myself, but does the 7.33 vs 7.50 account for critical hits? I guess not, but that could make up for that difference!

Ok, I did a quick research, and assuming a hit on a 10 and a crit only at natural 20, I found out, that both the greataxe with greatweapon style an the lonsword, two handed with (advanced) duelist style do an average of 4.4 damage per attack.
So actually, even though a longsword two hande with +2 damage seems better, the greataxe can still keep up.

If your hit chance is lower, the greataxe gets better, if your hit chance gets better, the longsword is ahead... by 0.0X damage per attack on average.

A champion, hitting critical at 19-20, will do more damage per attack with the greataxe.

My numbers aren't agreeing with those.

Longsword (d10) with Dueling Style and crits accoutned fore: 7.88 (Champion: 8.25/8.63)
Greataxe with Great Weapon Style and crits accounted for: 7.7 (Champion: 8.06/8.43)
Longsword with Great Weapon Style and crits accounted for: 6.62 (Champion: 6.93/7.25

From what I can see the numbers stay in the same order whether or not you account for crits and whether or not you account for Champions. d10 longsword + Dueling Style just beats greataxe unless you have the feat.

 

[DiscRover55]

Guys, I only needed two questions answered lol. And so far, I haven't gotten that many actual answers yet.

 

[Paraxis]

1. No Dueling won't work with a versatile weapon being used in two hands.

2. Other good feats would be Athlete (Kip-up), Martial Adept, or Sentinel.

Have you thought about using short swords, for using two swords at once, or going with two-handed sword to mimic a larger katana?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My numbers aren't agreeing with those.

Longsword (d10) with Dueling Style and crits accoutned fore: 7.88 (Champion: 8.25/8.63)
Greataxe with Great Weapon Style and crits accounted for: 7.7 (Champion: 8.06/8.43)
Longsword with Great Weapon Style and crits accounted for: 6.62 (Champion: 6.93/7.25

From what I can see the numbers stay in the same order whether or not you account for crits and whether or not you account for Champions. d10 longsword + Dueling Style just beats greataxe unless you have the feat.

Maybe because you calculated with 95% normal hits and 5% criticals. (Yes you did, got to the same wrong numbers with that wrong assumption)
In any scenario on average you hit with a 8+ or so...
Which make your critical hit rate something higher than 5%, because the conditional probability P(Crit|Hit)=P(Crit)/P(hit). So if you only hit 50% of the time, 10% of your hits are critical, not 5%

The average damage per attack (not hit), which is the interesting number, is only 3.75 without critical hits accounted for and about 4.0 with critical hits accounted for.
What I did not factor in are bonuses from strength. I must think about it, if it has an influence at all on the shape of the distribution, or if it is only a shift to higher numbers.

If you hit on 10+ it is 55%=0.55 hits, 5%=0,05 crit, so you average damage per hit (since you like that number more) is 8 for 1d10 longsword + duelist style, and 8 for the greataxe. (and still 4.4 damage per attack for both).
(In reality, you hit a little more often, leaving the longsword slightly better on average... 0.0X damage slightly)


So for the OP:
no problem in allowing a versatile weapon to be wielded in 2 hands and still benefit from duelist style. It won´t devalue the greataxe.

 

[Mephista]

Guys, I only needed two questions answered lol. And so far, I haven't gotten that many actual answers yet.

1- By a strict reading, it doesn't seem to, but I would allow it. Ask your GM. It seems that the main use of Versatile is to fight like you were using a two handed weapon, but get that hand free when you need to cast a spell. At least, that's why they did it with the staff for the wizard, so I feel like that's something to keep in mind. That flexibility is why I have no qualms with using a FS to get near heavy weapon damage (plus, no bonus action attack).

2- Alert for Initiative bonus. Lucky is nice all around. Martial Adapt for another Superiority Dice. I've never tried a Charge build before, but could be interesting with a samurai. Heavy Armor Mastery is awesome if you're going that route. Resistant for another one of the "strong" saves - Dex or Wis. I actually really enjoy using Sentinel myself.

Personally, I would use either one of the defensive feats (Heavy Armor Mastery or Resistant), or go with Magic Initiate (if going Eldritch Knight) or Martial Adapt (if Battlemaster) for a bit of forwards preparation.