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[FFG] Legendary Class Design Contest!

I think it would be cool to get a discussion going about these for a bit before we post the winners, what do you think Morrus?

Once the winners are posted, I"ll be happy to go over some of the design principles and such, as there are some issues I'd like to address in nearly all of them.

I hope you guys had fun creating these, they were a blast to read!
 

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d20Dwarf said:
I think it would be cool to get a discussion going about these for a bit before we post the winners, what do you think Morrus?

Up to you, Will - it's your contest. I'll announce the winners when you give the word.
 


Let the discussion begin. If we can get something going, I'll delay announcing the winners. If you guys want me to announce them then discuss, we can do it that way too.

Have at it!

Wil
 


Yeah, gimme a day or so... got some other contract stuff I'm working on tonight :)

A quick read through some random clicks is pretty impressive though. I like the tight focus a lot of these take, and some of the quests and special abilities are very inventive.

Just based on my random perusal, I think the more defined, focused classes are going to be the interesting ones.

-Reddist
 

Half the batch critiqued ... phew!

First off, seriously reading submissions is hard work. I don't envy those guys a WotC sifting thropught the campaign submissions.

I’m glad we have a chance to see everyone’s great work. Doing my duty to my fellow competitors, here’s my take on the first half of the entries. All of my advice is kinda off-the-cuff, so take it as you wish. I liked everyone’s stuff and I tried to be constructive with any criticism.

Here goes:

Bearer of the World’s Pain – I like it when a life path has solid philosophy, but why isn’t there an alignment restriction on this class (Lawful Good)? Could this class be one dedicated to a god of martyrs of suffering (like Ilmater in FR)? I think that the quest needs to be harder and that there should be another. The powers are interesting, but some are a bit restrictive and others seem too powerful. Consider No More Shall Suffer as the ability to use finger of death on evil beings once per being with a Save DC of 10 plus the spell level (7) plus the Cha modifier of the Bearer plus the power level. If the being so targeted makes the saving throw, the Bearer cannot target that being with the effect ever again. I must say that The Last Gift power rocks! It conjures images of real-world saints, especially Buddha!

Blade of God – I like the idea, but the requirements seem a bit steep at first glance and I disfavor the Str requirement. The player would have to be very careful and know very early that the legendary class was the goal sought. I do like the secondary implication of the character being a lawful good fighter until level 4 (Weapon Specialization) and then being inducted into a holy order (Paladin for Knowledge (religion) and turn undead probably, as a cleric would have to be 11th level (and Ftr 4) to meet the BAB requirement). The second quest is a bit hokey and doesn’t allow for campaign worlds in which deities have no avatar—most published avatars would kill a high-level character in a few rounds. The powers are very good, excepting Awareness of God which could just be Blindsight 10’ per power level, plus detect good or evil (as appropriate) at will.

The Brawler is hilarious! I hope it was meant to be funny – a “legendary” bar-fighter. *har, har * The only beefs I have with this guy is that his Thick Blood doesn’t seem so thick. A maximum +5 to Fort saves versus mundane poison isn’t so much. Shrug Off Blows is way too powerful – maybe multiply the subdual damage healed per hour by the power level +1.Additionally the character gets +1 to saves to resist stunning per power level and gets a Fortitude save to resist being Clobbered. For example, Gurlag (Ftr10/Brawler 4) gains Shrug Off Blows at 4th-level Brawler. Instead of 14 points of subdual damage per hour, he heals 70! Alternately, allow the character to ignore a number of points of subdual damage per round equal to his power level x his con mod.

The Warrior of the Broken Wake should be called the Devastator! :p I like this class because it’s fun, especially for those who revel in the sheer damage their character can cause (munchkins). I don’t like the fact that the class is aimed at axe wielders when many other weapons are suited to breaking. The powers, for the most part seem well balanced. Would Spell Cutting apply against rays? Maybe Sever Life should apply a bonus per power level to the DC of the Fortitude saving throw requires by the Death from Massive Damage variant. (The variant itself is not well thought-out IMO.)

The Deadeye Archer is nice. I like all of the abilities, but some of them don’t seem to have power levels related to their usage (Distant Strike). Also, Barrage seems too powerful. Perhaps the archer should be limited to one or two such attacks per power level? I like that the archer can create magical arrows and bows, but perhaps the ability should be more clearly defined in terms of magical ability and its relation to legendary power level. I see it as the master breathing life into created items ... cool!

The Elf Lord is a good class with a mundane name … though I can’t think of a better one off hand. Reveal His Glory is a great ability, but clearly spell-like or supernatural, not extraordinary. A few of the other abilities seem to fall into this category (i.e. should be subject to antimagic). The Immortality level 5 ability suggests that the Elf Lord no longer suffers aging penalties. Other immortal elf lords do? That’s kinda lame—a deal breaker if you ask me. “Yes Lanthala, you will be immortal, but after 350 years, you’ll be bent and decrepit … good luck!” I also think their power against death magic should be greater. Like maybe +2 versus death effects per power level and the death ward ability cast as a druid of the characters total character level or a 9th-level druid + one caster level per power level.

The Maitre d’Escrime is good for swashbuckling campaigns and one of my favorites presented here. I didn’t get the last paragraph in the quests section though. The great thing about this class is it shows the author has some fencing knowledge. I didn’t see the Weapon and Armor proficiency section in this class, but would assume that such a character must have to use light armor. I also think the duration for Extraordinary Expertise should be bumped up a bit and the language of the text should inform the reader that the Maitre need not use these rounds in succession. I also think that Dedicated Students and Razor-edged Reactions should be more powerful. Perhaps Razor-edged reactions should give a character a bonus much like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge. Dedicated students should, perhaps, be related to the Leadership feat. Are the students replaced if one is slain or otherwise removed from play?

The Dwarven Forgemaster is another favorite of mine … but I like dwarves … especially in leather, but that’s another story … ahem. I think the quests are a bit too easy. What about the items being made of material mined from an enemy stronghold? I like almost all of this classes abilities, they’re just good ideas. Some of the abilities, while still great ideas, have no relation to power level (Unforge, Mystic Forge Hammer, Tireless Champion). The Dwarven Hero ability is related to power level, but only marginally—maybe all of the bonuses could be related somehow. Elemental companions can’t be replaced so this power probably won’t be taken by anyone … perhaps replaced after a year and a day like familiars would suit best.

I enjoyed the Grandmaster of the Clouds—another favorite. I wondered why the requirements list as special abilities that have names in the monk class (Leap of the Clouds = leap unrestricted by height and unarmored speed = double the move of a normal creature…)? The quests were truly cool and the multiclassing note was a great call. The grandmaster’s powers a great too. Walk on the clouds should be cast as a cleric of some level, not such a limited duration (especially if ones wants to simulate Crouching Marmot, Hidden Billy Goat). Again, some of the abilities were not related to power level (Move with Grace, Move Without Boundaries, and etc.). I think Blink of an Eye should just go ahead and be once per day per power level, using dimension door as the base spell.

True King – good idea! This class has a lot of campaign value, but the qualifications are a bit too easy. The quests are what make it shine, classic but maybe a bit cliché—too many fantasy stories hinge on the idea of a fabled king. The powers seem good, but some are too ill defined, while others have not relation to the level at which they are chosen (Mighty Blow). Passionate Rhetoric is good in theory bur the duration is questionable. What does “battle” mean in this context? Heirloom is impressive, but from where do these items come? I also don’t totally understand Natural Leader (mostly the “bumped” off part and how it jives with the example you gave).

Well, that’s all for tonight. I’ll give the rest a read on the morrow. I hope you all enjoy reading these. Maybe we could do a little netbook here on EN World after the contest. You know, edit these and put ‘em together with typeset pages and illustrations. Maybe the pros could give us some help … and I’d do the design and some of the drawings if everyone were game. I'll let everyone see my website after the contest 'cause I don't want anyone to know which entry is mine yet.

Just an idea.

Cheers!
 
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Re: Half the batch critiqued ... phew!

Khur said:
The Deadeye Archer is nice. I like all of the abilities, but some of them don’t seem to have power levels related to their usage (Distant Strike). Also, Barrage seems too powerful. Perhaps the archer should be limited to one or two such attacks per power level? I like that the archer can create magical arrows and bows, but perhaps the ability should be more clearly defined in terms of magical ability and its relation to legendary power level. I see it as the master breathing life into created items ... cool!

This was one of mine. If you look at the last sentence to barrage of arrows, it is limited to once per power level.

The Dwarven Forgemaster is another favorite of mine … but I like dwarves … especially in leather, but that’s another story … ahem. I think the quests are a bit too easy. What about the items being made of material mined from an enemy stronghold? I like almost all of this classes abilities, they’re just good ideas. Some of the abilities, while still great ideas, have no relation to power level (Unforge, Mystic Forge Hammer, Tireless Champion). The Dwarven Hero ability is related to power level, but only marginally—maybe all of the bonuses could be related somehow. Elemental companions can’t be replaced so this power probably won’t be taken by anyone … perhaps replaced after a year and a day like familiars would suit best.

Yeah, upon re-reading this legendary class, I would have added a quest to defeat an earth elemental. The contest would vary. Maybe a wrestling match with an elemental...that would be very cool. I didn't see a requirement that the abilities be related to the power level. I would need to rethink these abilities...

I enjoyed the Grandmaster of the Clouds—another favorite. I wondered why the requirements list as special abilities that have names in the monk class (Leap of the Clouds = leap unrestricted by height and unarmored speed = double the move of a normal creature…)? The quests were truly cool and the multiclassing note was a great call. The grandmaster’s powers a great too. Walk on the clouds should be cast as a cleric of some level, not such a limited duration (especially if ones wants to simulate Crouching Marmot, Hidden Billy Goat). Again, some of the abilities were not related to power level (Move with Grace, Move Without Boundaries, and etc.). I think Blink of an Eye should just go ahead and be once per day per power level, using dimension door as the base spell.

This legendary class was intended to be a "master of movement". I didn't put the monk class names in there, because there are other way to beat that restriction besides being a monk, although going monk is by far the easiest. I played with increasing the duration of air walk to the full 10 min per level, and I found it a bit unrealistic. I wanted something like the said movie and not that they are running on air for 30 minutes straight. Blink of an Eye could go just as you said, using dimension door as a base. And I almost did go that way. :) But the essense of the ability is they move so fast, its a free action. Why did I limit it like I did? I found it unbalancing to allow the monk to instantly appear next to a foe, attack them 5 times, and instantly appear 100' away. Granted that uses all their "charges" for the day, but I thought it was overly powerful to allow once per power level.

************

Thanks for the review. I did find it very helpful.

BTW, Morrus, you are just cruel. :)
 

Bearer of the Wolrd's Pain - Overall I thought this class was fairly creative.

The good things:

A lot of the abilities were very creative. Rest in peace is a clever twist, especially for character's who cannot turn. The cross is mine and the last gift were also very good and fitting to the god of mercy. Finally the They pain returned is an excellent

Some of the downsides:

Requirements too low (you can become a legend at 8th-level). Maybe make damage reduction a requirement. The quests are too random. Even someone with a +30 to every save could fail by random chance. God's Mercy is a bit too generous. Immune to subdual damage means they could run forever, or get into fist fights and never be damaged...it also means they cannot be subdued. The World's Toughness feat is a little strong (with a max bonus of 50 hp).

Blade of God - In general, I wasn't clear exactly what they feel for this legendary class was. I didn't understand why strength was a requirement, although it must be tied to the ability bonus to Strength. I thought some of the abilities were a bit overboard. Critical Attack and Dancing Attack are a bit too powerful, IMO. I also noticed in the Aura of Gods ability, that they receive turning enhancement, although being able to turn isn't a requirement to be this legend. Same with the extra smiting. Sorry, this one didn't sit right with me.

Brawler - A clever class with some really appropriate abilities to bar-room brawling. I saw several of the abilities (Calloused Knuckles, heavy fist, ground fighter, and two-fisted wallop) as very fitting. I have to agree with Khur, that the Shrug off blows is a bit too powerful. Maybe change it to restore 1 hp of subdual damage per power level per minute (instead of per round). My only other objection to this class was that he could lose the ability to advance it should he lose a fight. That, and I wasn't sure if a bar-room brawler could be the stuff of legends. Maybe...I wouldn't so no.

Warrior of the Broken Wake - Seemed to focus on massive damage. I like the carving through natural armor abilities. I would have liked to have seem more abilities focusing around power attack...somewhat like the frenzied berserker's ability. Feed the destruction has a very cool description, and I like the bonus to cleave. I definitely think Sever Life is too powerful. If taken at 5th-level, that means 25 points of damage would be enough for a save or die. Combine that with Crushing Blow and that means just about every hit is save or die. I agree with Khur, increase the save DC instead. Maybe +2 DC per power level if you do 50 points of damage. Cut the masses is very powerful. I'm not certain if its overly so though, it would need to be playtested. Oh, and the saves are funky...just something I wanted to note. :)
 
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Note on the Deadeye...

I'm glad my insight helped a bit. I hoped not to insult anyone with my criticisms. :)

If you look at the last sentence to barrage of arrows, it is limited to once per power level.

I noticed this, I just think being able to attack everyone in the area is a bit much. That's why I said like plus two (or maybe 3) attacks (additional) per power level at the highest attack rating. So a 15th level fighter type would have 3 regular attacks, and with the barrage ability, at say 4th-level, he would get 8 more attacks per round at +15 (BAB) for a total of 9 plus two lower BAB attacks--11 attacks! That's a lot!

Maybe remove the limit that the barrage must aim only one arrow at each target, then keep (or lower) the limit of uses per day. Perhaps lower it to once per day no matter what. That way the archer could shoot a really powerful target with the whole barrage. Perhaps all targets should have to be within 10 feet of each other as well. BTW using this ability should require a full attack action no matter what choice the player makes for the arrangement of shots.

Check out the Master of the Order of the Bow epic class in Dragon 297 (for ranged opportunity attacks if nothing else). The Grandmaster of the Clouds is nicely related to the Weightless Foot ninja prestige class in Dragon 289 , but the Weightless Foot can use air walk better than your legendary class. That's one reason I said something about the air walk ability for the The Grandmaster of the Clouds.

BTW a way to limit Blink of an Eye without restricting uses per day is make the blinking a move equivalent action. Or, make only one blink possible in a given round, despite it being a free action.

Just ideas ... I enjoyed your classes.
 
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