Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I suspect it's because somehow they are having fun playing the game.
D&D (2024) Fighter brainstorm
I suspect it's because somehow they are having fun playing the game.
Well, yeah. I mean, I doubt anyone would play a game if they weren't having fun. But it's an aspect of the game that isn't fun for me. I mean, as a player, sure, I could avoid certain classes/subclasses. It bothers me, because I don't think that's right, but it is what it is, and it's not unique to this version of D&D- every version has had questionable options.
But when I DM, it really bugs me to know that my players will pick a class because it seems cool to them, and then somewhere down the road wonder why they are having difficulties other players are not, or why another player is allowed to outshine them at something their character is supposedly good at. They start to struggle, they wonder if they're doing something wrong, and eventually I have to tell them "I'm sorry, but that's just how your class was built".
I've tried to combat this, by telling players in advance that some options aren't as good as they seem, but I generally get strange looks or even pushback. One AL player even told me I was wrong, because "there's no way they'd make a subclass bad".
And you know, a lot of times, even "bad" choices can shine, in certain situations. It's not like the game doesn't work at all. But why it isn't better is what bothers me. There's no reason the Eldritch Knight isn't even a half-caster, but it's perfectly fine to hand out Extra Attack to arcane casters, for example.
Or why the Cleric, which has always been designed as a Tier 2 melee class, doesn't get Extra Attack (save for the limited version from the War Domain).
The playtest Ranger got sorted into the skilled class category, given Expertise, and it's magic buffed, while retaining it's combat abilities, and some people are still saying "man, I hope the Fighter stays basic".
Important to note that DND isn't a competition. If a player feels outshined or less useful then the party isn't being given enough to do concurrently.
No one player should have the single answer and there shouldn't be a single answer to begin with.
To make an analogy to the movies, take Ocean's 11. Clooney's character is just as capable a pickpocket as Damon's character is. Not only does Clooney not have to butt in and do Damon's job as part of the heist, but he has other things he needs to do that are more suited to him.
That works because the heist takes the entire group to pull off and people only step on each others toes when something goes wrong and they need to fix it.
Back in DND land this is something that tends to be more on the DM than the game itseld; niche protection isn't a thing 5e emphasizes because its not trying to force people to play a particular role, so you're going to have overlaps in abilities.
Those overlaps may on occasion be stark, but it still comes down to how the adventure is being run whether or not that even matters.
No one player should have the single answer and there shouldn't be a single answer to begin with.
To make an analogy to the movies, take Ocean's 11. Clooney's character is just as capable a pickpocket as Damon's character is. Not only does Clooney not have to butt in and do Damon's job as part of the heist, but he has other things he needs to do that are more suited to him.
That works because the heist takes the entire group to pull off and people only step on each others toes when something goes wrong and they need to fix it.
Back in DND land this is something that tends to be more on the DM than the game itseld; niche protection isn't a thing 5e emphasizes because its not trying to force people to play a particular role, so you're going to have overlaps in abilities.
Those overlaps may on occasion be stark, but it still comes down to how the adventure is being run whether or not that even matters.
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Or the less kind way to say that is that D&D shoves that responsibility onto the DM because it isn't willing to actually encode niche protection or spotlight balance into the rules, despite giving a nod and a wink that they should matter.
deganawida
Legend
Unfortunately, I don't think that this is a solvable problem so long as the designers build and the players expect multiple classes that overlap the same problem-solving space. By that I mean that, so long as there are more classes that deal with combat by hitting things with sticks, you're going to have this issue.
It's basically this: "But my Boorluvian Stick Whisperer can command his sticks to fight, therefore I should be able to hit just like the Stick Hitter, and just as often! It doesn't matter that I can also whisper to the sticks to tell them to make cages or bridges or huts! It doesn't make sense that pure sticks can't react to my commands as well as when the Stick Hitter does it!"
Well, for one, again, its intentionally not trying to protect niches because it doesn't want anyone to be pidgeonholed into a particular role.
And that makes sense in the context that 5e was an apology for 4E, where the exact opposite was true.
For two, balance is overrated and again, DND isn't a competition. If it feels like it is, the DM is not giving the party enough to do, and thats not something the rules can ever account for. (Modules can, and we all know WOTCs are generally bad, but thats not a rules problem)
Also has to be said that this is a player culture issue too; the way certain people talk about these specific kinds of issues really sounds you're dealing with (or are) a problem player who will butt in and constantly try to do everything they can even when someone else can do it.
Like, everyone knows casters have a lot of things they can do.
Doesn't mean you need to be a That Guy and force the person whose playing a Rogue to sit out.
Incenjucar
Legend
The issue is that the non-casters would like the option to have as much to do as the casters without having to be casters instead of magic being the correct answer for anyone who wants to actually do stuff.
The thing is is that non-casters do have that option through skills, tools, and equipment.
What you're actually asking for is explicit "do the thing" buttons, which really isn't good design to begin with; Casters shouldn't have them either, and the alternatives should be more mechanically robust.
Incenjucar
Legend
Spells are Do The Thing buttons. Skills are Do The Thing buttons. Casters also get skills in addition to spells.
Skills aren't buttons because theres still a layer of negotiation between player and DM. And theres often also more elaborate mechanics involved as well that the skill check merely confirms.
Spells just work and that, again, isn't very good design.
This is part of why Im a firm believer in the idea that magic is at the core of nearly every single problem with 5E and as such should be nerfed into the ground before anything else changes.
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