D&D (2024) Fighter brainstorm

[Incenjucar]

Skills aren't buttons because theres still a layer of negotiation between player and DM. And theres often also more elaborate mechanics involved as well that the skill check merely confirms.

Spells just work and that, again, isn't very good design.

This is part of why Im a firm believer in the idea that magic is at the core of nearly every single problem with 5E and as such should be nerfed into the ground before anything else changes.

Given that's less likely than things going back to 4E design, non-casters should be getting equivalent buttons to push while we wait for that transformation.

 

[Emberashh]

Given that's less likely than things going back to 4E design, non-casters should be getting equivalent buttons to push while we wait for that transformation.

And Id be making a low stakes bet if I said that everyone would be tremendously disappointed in it if thats what they got.

If one is not going to recognize that magic is the problem then one is going to overcorrect when they go to fix non-magic users.

Thats how we get people unironically calling for Martials to be able to cleave mountains, despite the fact that no 5e caster has an equivalent capability. (Outside of Wish, which shouldn't even be a spell and is the best example of why magic is the problem)

 

[Incenjucar]

Even if magic gets brought to heel somehow, non-magical characters should get more to do. The vast majority of conditions and basic concepts in the game can be applied to combat using abilities present in real life, and should be available to someone who plans to smash beholders in the face.

 

[James Gasik]

Skills aren't buttons because theres still a layer of negotiation between player and DM. And theres often also more elaborate mechanics involved as well that the skill check merely confirms.

Spells just work and that, again, isn't very good design.

This is part of why Im a firm believer in the idea that magic is at the core of nearly every single problem with 5E and as such should be nerfed into the ground before anything else changes.

Unfortunately, when they did nerf magic to the ground, a lot of people got upset saying that "it didn't feel like" magic anymore. Or that it didn't feel like D&D.

Which is why 5e resurrected all the old spells, even the known to be problematic ones like Fabricate, Forcecage, Simulacrum, Shapechange, Gate, Wish, et. al.. Sure, they limited top end spell slots, but in almost any situation where you can't just bludgeon the problem to death, the answer is a spell, a design philosophy that goes all the way back to the 70's.

 

[James Gasik]

And Id be making a low stakes bet if I said that everyone would be tremendously disappointed in it if thats what they got.

If one is not going to recognize that magic is the problem then one is going to overcorrect when they go to fix non-magic users.

Thats how we get people unironically calling for Martials to be able to cleave mountains, despite the fact that no 5e caster has an equivalent capability. (Outside of Wish, which shouldn't even be a spell and is the best example of why magic is the problem)

Cleave mountains? No. Elder Mountain Hammer? Yes, please!

 

[Emberashh]

Even if magic gets brought to heel somehow, non-magical characters should get more to do. The vast majority of conditions and basic concepts in the game can be applied to combat using abilities present in real life, and should be available to someone who plans to smash beholders in the face.

Of course they should. The need for Magic to be nerfed into the ground does not imply that non-casters shouldn't have more to them.

Magic has to be nerfed into the ground so that non-casters can then be buffed up to that level.

Important to remember that DND is still intended to be a blend of sword/sorcery and epic fantasy.

Trying to buff martials to the level of 5e casters (and well beyond them, depending on who you ask) starts to violate the conventions of those genres, whereas nerfing casters to a more reasonable baseline doesn't. DND isn't and shouldn't be about mythic fantasy, and theres way better mechanical structures for that genre than what we have in DND.

To use another game as an example, DCC's magic is oftentimes dramatically more powerful and consequential than that in 5E. Even Wish can seem like a pittance compared to what some spells in DCC can do.

And yet DCC simply doesn't have this problem of a disparity between martials and casters. Part of it is because the martial classes are well designed, but the main reason is because magic is balanced out by how dangerous it is to even try to use it.

DND isn't likely to go that route to balancing what spells can do, so the only option is to nerf it, or accept that the game is going to baloon into a disastrous mess thats impossible to design any further suppments for without breaking the game over and over.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm not even talking about fantasy at this point, I'm talking about giving non-casters combat abilities you can find in an after school self-defense class. If they could give them enough abilities to avoid getting swirlied before first period it would be a huge improvement.

 

[Emberashh]

Unfortunately, when they did nerf magic to the ground, a lot of people got upset saying that "it didn't feel like" magic anymore. Or that it didn't feel like D&D.

I think that has more to do with how much 4E departed from the traditional in all aspects, and with little to no community input, than it does with a broken magic system actually being a genuine Sacred Cow.

And given how vocal more or less the entire community is in regards to magic being so problematic (even if people don't want to admit it), it stands to reason that doing it well isn't going to be as poorly recieved as is suspected.

And it has to be said, the lack of trust in WOTC to pull this off well just illustrates my earlier point as to why this isn't going to work out the way people want it to.

Its a lot easier to over-nerf and then correct it than it is to over-buff and then take it back, and at somepoint somebody is gonna be disappointed regardless.

If WOTC had any conviction to stand by their game (something they haven't had for the entirety if their ownership of the brand), we likely wouldn't have any of these problems.

 

[Emberashh]

I'm not even talking about fantasy at this point, I'm talking about giving non-casters combat abilities you can find in an after school self-defense class. If they could give them enough abilities to avoid getting swirlied before first period it would be a huge improvement.

I've never played as or run for a Martial that can't keep up (and excel) in combat. Theres more going on in that perception of martials being weak in combat than just having more buttons to push.

 

[Incenjucar]

I've never played as or run for a Martial that can't keep up (and excel) in combat. Theres more going on in that perception of martials being weak in combat than just having more buttons to push.

That's great, but they lack the versatility of Bobby Hill yelling "That's my purse".

Edit: The monk at least has a That's My Purse move, but also Astral Projection.