D&D (2024) Fighter brainstorm

[Emberashh]

I'm going to refrain from taking this into the history of games tangent and just say that, at this time, D&D is primarily composed of discrete abilities, regardless of what an ideal game might be. Within the existing paradigm of discrete abilities, martial classes could use more to expand their options.

I don't believe that was ever in dispute.

My points are about what 5e already has and why certain issues aren't necessarily always due to the mechanics or supposed lack thereof.

And more to the point, having a button for pulling a Bobby Hill is just boring game design. We don't need more buttons like that.

A better way would be a core set of kicking mechanics that are then built upon by classes, feats, etc adding more choices to engaging in that behavior, with the Bobby Hill special being at the bottom of the list of possibilities. In doing this in this way, you can also then integrate with other mechanics, producing interactions that give an exponential amount more possibilities.

But, the trouble is that can quickly become very complex and convoluted if you're not careful, and meanwhile the Improvise Action option merely requires a mutually agreed upon expectation, that the books absolutely should help establish, to accomplish much of the same goal without the baggage of making a simple kick to the nuts a rocket equation.

 

[Clint_L]

I'm going to refrain from taking this into the history of games tangent and just say that, at this time, D&D is primarily composed of discrete abilities, regardless of what an ideal game might be. Within the existing paradigm of discrete abilities, martial classes could use more to expand their options.

Ideal game for who, though? My games are not combat focused, and most of the suggestions for fighters that I am seeing seem to be focused on making it more like a simulation, which is not a direction that I would enjoy as I think it would slow combat down even more without adding a ton. It would have to be replicated in every combat class, and suddenly we have a more detailed melee simulator that, for me, would detract from the story.

Framing it in terms of "buttons to push" reminds me of debates that happen endlessly on the World of Warcraft forums. In a video game, the algorithms handle the grunt work of executing all the added complexity, but even there, I never found these types of argument convincing. Adding a few extra options to baseline fighter could be cool, but you seem to be proposing a radical revamp of the combat system, which kind of sounds like what you really want is a different RPG. I like it simple.

 

[Pauln6]

why not just cunning action but for tripping, disarming, etc.? why have a limit on uses?

I agree up to a point (and I would probably add intimidation to that list) but the simple answer is that they moved those into feats and manoeuvres. Shield master is pretty sweet even without the bonus action shove but that gets used pretty much every round in combat. If fighters were to get it free it would be used against every medium or large monster all the time. I'm not sure that would make fighters more interesting.

At least with a limited resource, the feats can stay intact. You could also add a rider if saves are made, such as disadvantage on the target's next attack or skill check even if you fail to disarm them.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm not engaging in the video game discussion in this thread.

Martial characters should also have more non-combat options, 10,000%. Things like being able to chuck dwarves across ravines, perform multiple actions in a single round, etc., could all be really handy, while not stepping on the precision aspect of expert classes.

 

[James Gasik]

I think that has more to do with how much 4E departed from the traditional in all aspects, and with little to no community input, than it does with a broken magic system actually being a genuine Sacred Cow.

And given how vocal more or less the entire community is in regards to magic being so problematic (even if people don't want to admit it), it stands to reason that doing it well isn't going to be as poorly recieved as is suspected.

And it has to be said, the lack of trust in WOTC to pull this off well just illustrates my earlier point as to why this isn't going to work out the way people want it to.

Its a lot easier to over-nerf and then correct it than it is to over-buff and then take it back, and at somepoint somebody is gonna be disappointed regardless.

If WOTC had any conviction to stand by their game (something they haven't had for the entirety if their ownership of the brand), we likely wouldn't have any of these problems.

I've witnessed a lot of these debates that generally go "we want the Fighter to remain at the level of a guy at the gym, and we're happy with Wizards; we don't see them as problematic at all". And there were a lot of people upset that Wizards didn't feel like Wizards in 4e, and I remember those voices during the Next playtest. Now, how widespread that is, I can't say; people on online forums tend to be a lot more hyperbolic and radical than your "gamer on the street" (myself included, lol). But the people who hold those opinions do exist, and can be quite verbose about them.

 

[James Gasik]

Being able to convert a standard weapon or unarmed attack into an effect reliably would do so much. It would make the weed whacker fighter suddenly have amazing tactical utility. Prone>blind>stab vs stab>stab>stab.

It will still have to do damage, however, since, as many people point out, the best status effect is dead. I learned this lesson in 4e, when I loaded up on non-damaging control effects; monsters would lose turns but still be alive on my next one. So I realized that even in a minor way, I have to synergize with what everyone else is doing, ie, inflict damage.

 

[James Gasik]

It will still have to do damage, however, since, as many people point out, the best status effect is dead. I learned this lesson in 4e, when I loaded up on non-damaging control effects; monsters would lose turns but still be alive on my next one. So I realized that even in a minor way, I have to synergize with what everyone else is doing, ie, inflict damage.

As an aside, this is why I think more spells should work like Sleep, Color Spray, and the Power Word series; I really like the idea of spells that synergize with damage my allies do so neatly, and it seems like a great way to balance powerful spells, if they only work on enemies that have been beat down somewhat.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I agree up to a point (and I would probably add intimidation to that list) but the simple answer is that they moved those into feats and manoeuvres. Shield master is pretty sweet even without the bonus action shove but that gets used pretty much every round in combat. If fighters were to get it free it would be used against every medium or large monster all the time. I'm not sure that would make fighters more interesting.

At least with a limited resource, the feats can stay intact. You could also add a rider if saves are made, such as disadvantage on the target's next attack or skill check even if you fail to disarm them.

ok, but for one the combat feats are getting changed anyway, so that point might not even be relevant anymore. second off, who says that shove would always be your best option with this feature? maybe you're fighting an enemy with a really strong magic weapon. boom, disarm is the better option. heck, with intimidation, maybe you want something to back off but don't want to get in its reach - boom, intimidation is better.

and yeah, riders are another option.

 

[mellored]

In case you missed it in the recent playtest

DESIGN NOTE: WEAPON CHANGES The upcoming article on Warrior classes will introduce new weapon options. Those options will differentiate weapons from each other more clearly. For example, the Shortsword (Simple) and the Scimitar (Martial) will have different roles to play in the game.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm not even talking about fantasy at this point, I'm talking about giving non-casters combat abilities you can find in an after school self-defense class. If they could give them enough abilities to avoid getting swirlied before first period it would be a huge improvement.

Isn’t that what the larger hit die repreeents, at least in part?