Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Manbearcat]

I have a session coming up. I think there may be an opportunity to frame a Skill Challenge centered around "THE OBSTINATE CHAMBERLAIN AND HIS VEXING NON-COMPLIANCE" only with a demonic underling as chamberlain and a demon lord as king. This could be amusing. If that situation materializes, I may post results if I have time.

 

[TwoSix]

I have a session coming up. I think there may be an opportunity to frame a Skill Challenge centered around "THE OBSTINATE CHAMBERLAIN AND HIS VEXING NON-COMPLIANCE" only with a demonic underling as chamberlain and a demon lord as king. This could be amusing. If that situation materializes, I may post results if I have time.

Failure at the skill challenge should lead to automatic banishment to a desert realm experiencing fierce sandstorms.

 

[TwoSix]

To me, "framing" implies the DM had some sort of advance warning the scene was coming, and-or that it is actually part of her planned plot, and-or that the DM had any choice in the matter, and thus the scene could be set up in advance e.g. reactions determined, DCs pre-set for various things, even stats rolled for key people, etc.

Nah. In our strange "indie" "narrative" tongue, scene framing just means you draw the picture of what's going on now that's currently interesting and relevant to your PCs. Usually you throw in some transition like "After a dusty ride back into the city, you arrive at the palace and meet with the chamberlain in the throne room", or "Three months later, you meet back up at the Inn of the Knocked Boots to discuss the results of Zabob's magical research".

It doesn't necessarily have to include a segue or a transition, it might be "After your attempt at sweet-talk fails, the chamberlain shouts "Guards!", and six armed men enter the room."

 

[Manbearcat]

Failure at the skill challenge should lead to automatic banishment to a desert realm experiencing fierce sandstorms.

Its either that or banishment to a pocket dimension riffed off Groundhog's Day where every day the PCs wake up, they need to get the McGuffin from the Black Dragon but they can't locate his lair because every time they try to Magic Jar Louie the Lizard Man, his buddy (also curiously named Louie) is continuously rotating in to relieve him...in an agonizing, Magic Jar c-blocking, perpetual sentry relief loop.

Its gonna be misquito-ey. Its gonna be swampy. And its gonna last them...the rest of their lives.

 

[Dandu]

Systemic issues are much more difficult to rule-zero away for a couple of reasons. First, changes to these areas often affect large swaths of the game in ways the DM can't easily predict. Second, they don't involve obvious silliness like infinite wishes, so players have a reasonable complaint if the DM changes how things work without warning. In addition, these problems crop up more often--they don't require you to have access to 9th-level spells or high-powered magic items--so they're more of a headache.

But in any case, if something requires Rule Zero or tortured rules lawyering to fix, it's a problem. Wish-exploits certainly qualify! But there are bigger problems that should take priority.

The Wish-exploits are a symptom, though, of a magic system that was never thought out, which leads to class imbalance. So while I would agree that the exploit in and of itself is a minor issue, it exists because of a systemic problem.

 

[Ranes]

The Wish-exploits are a symptom, though, of a magic system that was never thought out.

Flawed, yes, 'not fully thought out', okay but 'never thought out' is clearly an over-claim when there are many aspects of the magic system that are obviously the result of being 'thought out'.

Hyperbole does your argument - and the game's authors - a disservice.

 

[pemerton]

To me, "framing" implies the DM had some sort of advance warning the scene was coming, and-or that it is actually part of her planned plot, and-or that the DM had any choice in the matter, and thus the scene could be set up in advance e.g. reactions determined, DCs pre-set for various things, even stats rolled for key people, etc. But what if there is no warning? What if on a whim the party decides while in town "Hey, let's drop by the palace and see how ol' Kingy's getting on", and the next thing the DM hears is "We're heading for the palace!". The DM can't really be blamed for what happens next, can she?

In my case, I run a system that makes it very easy to set up DCs etc without the need for prep. (Namely, 4e.)

 

[Dandu]

Flawed, yes, 'not fully thought out', okay but 'never thought out' is clearly an over-claim when there are many aspects of the magic system that are obviously the result of being 'thought out'.

Hyperbole does your argument - and the game's authors - a disservice.

[video=youtube;BQ4yd2W50No]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4yd2W50No[/video]

 

[Wicht]

So you use scrolls of Resurrection, Raise Dead, Limited Wish, or any other spell that has an expensive component.

It is also great for any item that creates a permanent effect in the world where the item is limited in uses and difficult to replace. Project, burn the item out getting the effect you want Rinse and repeat.

I'm not sure you understood how I would rule on this. I would play that the copy is powered by the original, so that if you drank your potion, when you went back, you had a vial full of water (or something inert), if you used your scrolls and went back, you had a blank sheet of paper, if you use your luck blade wishes, when you get back, your wishes have been used.

 

[Wicht]

I'd have to go with yes? There are a bunch of ways to get infinite wishes in the game at levels 17+. A reasonable player, playing the game as written, without previous discussion of house-rulings, should expect the individual parts to operate as specified. It would be unreasonable to assume they don't operate as specified: that's what specifications are for after all.

Now a responsible player (note the word change) may decide that the specifications as provided will damage the experience at the table and may seek a house ruling to adjust the specifications.

Using the Pathfinder Wish spell, you cannot get unlimited wishes. The spell is powerful, but explicitly not that powerful. Other avenues for wishes exist, but they all have some element of risk.