File type discrimination

[Piratecat]

I appologize to the rest of the board for this outburst, but it's more than a little irritating to see the same damn thing in every few discussions.

Unacceptable. You know the rules on this site. I don't care whether you're "a little irritated" or not, next time please walk away from the keyboard instead of posting personal insults.

If anyone should be using "absolute silence or a carefully worded apology" in this case, it is you.

I have removed your post. If this is somehow a problem, please feel free to email me. Please keep this thread civil, folks, or it will be closed.

 

[Sm!rk]

As far as reverse engineering the software goes. E-Tools runs on top of an access database. As such, they cannot possibly back up this assertion as technically MS reverse engineered their database before it was even built. They use a commercial
...
install the software then I'm not bound by any agreement. It boils down to this, reverse engineering is legal because you can't make it illegal because you can't prove it. Besides all that, the files are not software any more then a word doc is software.

Pretty clueless, two things, one it doesn't matter who accepts the agreement, if you use the software, and there is no way to install it short of agreeing, *then* you are in agreement. Kinda like you can't "cross your fingers" while signing a contract to make it null and void, this isn't the playground. And when your mommy is telling you to take out the garbage you whining LaLaLaLa does not cancel out her order.
And secondly, you don't need to prove you reversed the database, the data in the database is still OWNED IP, owned by wotc. You can reverse it all you like, you still can't distribute it.

Where do these people come from? There is no such thing as a Wand of IP ownership removal, so give it a rest.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Henry: Thanks for bringing civility back to this. I agree with you on almost all points, particularly the part about hating to make paper characters anymore. The main drawback to me about using e-tools is the lack of class editing. I enjoy using PrCs and the inability to support this makes e-tools near useless to me.

Mynex: Thanks for once again stateing what has been stated repeadedly. I wish you the best of luck with your program and I understand your need to defend it whenever it is attacked.

Drawmack: With regards to d20 publishers releasing information in pdf format whether for a price or for free, yes they deffinitely still control it. Now if Bastion Press (I don't know thier material or situation, I am using them as a hypothetical since you mentioned them) were to then allow and encourage this IP to be redistributed for free by others, then yes I believe they have given up control and I could reformat the data into a different file type first. If however at the release site or as part of the lisence agreement they prohibit this redistribution, then they still retain full rights and it would be illeagal to redistribute it without permission.

Your point about PCGen being under the GPL and therefore all parts are open source, you may have a point there, I am not familiar with the details of this. If this is the case and I was a d20 publisher I would be reluctant to allow them to distribute my data. If I still wanted my product to be included, there is a way around this. I could prohibit the lst file from being distributed with PCGen, but make it downloadable from my site with the proper restrictions about redistribution in place. That way the Program can be GPL but my copyrights are still intact. If as Henry pointed out and I believe it is correct then the info in a lst is not nearly enough to compromise the majority of my IP, and if it increases my overall sales, then even given the GPL restrictions I may not have a problem with it.

As for WotC distributing thier IP directly from thier site, yes absolutely it is still thier IP and can not be redistributed without permission. But as you said it is thiers to do with what they want. What they are doing right now however is encouraging, or at least allowing with full knowlege, other people to enter IP that was not included in the release and then freely distribute it on the internet. Once this is done they are no longer in control of how that material is used or distributed. My original point is that partialy aimed at WotC and partialy at these boards and others, why does the ban on lst files exist while this same IP is being distributed in a diferent file format. If you have knowlege of a ban on IP distribution in one format why is it ok to allow it in a different format, or if it is permissable to share in one format why not another.

Unfortunately my point here may be unfavorable to everyone since it seams to me WotC has no desire to see e-tools succeed. If this is case then sure you can enforce the ban on non-SRD materials being redistributed, but then you kill both e-tools and PCGen at the same time. However if you want e-tools to suceed without competition from PCGen then you must officially release the non-SRD material. If WotC wishes to continue with thier current course however I don't see how the current discrimination against lst files can be allowed.

As far as the file format being proprietary, so is Word, Excel, and Access. This does not however grant Microsoft rights to anything you create and distribute using these programs. If you enter your own creative work into e-tools this is still your work and WotC has no rights to it. You may distribute this work anyway you choose, the file format is irrelavant.

 

[Sm!rk]

Sm!rk: Again, I will let Mynex's reply stand here, with only one more thought - PCGen in no way attempts to steal ANYONE's intellectual IP

No you are right, it wasn't an attempt, they succeeded as I mentioned in my other post. And it went on for 2 years unchecked, now we see hundreds of pcgen users whining cause they lost their free meal ticket.

, and is in fact (I state this as FACT) responsible for more purchases than were ever lost

You saying "I state this as a FACT" doesn't magic it into a fact, lets *see* these facts. I'd like to know, do share.

It is to me as supportable as saying that a character sheet posted on the internet for the BRP Call of Cthulhu System

I'm sure they are, especially the ones that use the D&D logo, but they are small time. They aren't parading about like they have a license to steal. Acting all rightous cause they're "free", but all the while standing on what represents their only real value, wotc IP, all stolen.

I have finally gotten a chance to see a friend's copy of E-tools; I was somewhat unimpressed because of the lack of implemented features that it has compared to some of the other established packages out there.

What established packages, pcgen? Har, they should grovel at the feet of wotc for all they have benefitted, not such a good project to put on the resume though.
I was quite impressed with pcgen, I didn't know you could stack that many depths of windows edge effects. My strikes were spent and then some by a simple pH test, Min((26 - button size in pixels), 0) = strikes, that rates pcgen at about 20 strikes, working on a no hitter.

(Note: I hadn't made up a number of different window edges back-to-back prior, doubt I'll need to, who on earth could top pcgen?)

 

[sigfried]

Netbook of Feats and PCGen

Hi everyone.

I just wanted to add what I can to this discussion.

I gave Mynex "permission" to use the feats in the netbook in a sense, but it was the same "permission' I give to anyone who asks if they can use the feats in the netbook, which is to say that they don't need my "permission" to do so.

All our material is OGC which means that under the terms of the OGL the authors have granted unlimited use to any and all. Of course the OGL requires that they are used only in conjuction with that license, but I don't have the power to change any of that, so anyone asking me for permission to break the terms of the OGL is asking the wrong person.

If Mynex (pcgen) thought I was giving him "special" permission to do anything outside of using OGC content in the usual way, then he and I misunderstood what was going on.

When somone asks me if they can use the netbook I figure they are just asking for my blessing because they don't want to upset me, and so I explain that the whole point is for anyone to use it however they like and my blessing isn't needed. I'll even format the information for them in a way that is helpfull.

I'll contact Mynex and clarify our position so that there are no misunderstandings.

Sigfried Trent
Team leader Netbook of Feats

 

[Sm!rk]

Once this is done they are no longer in control of how that material is used or distributed.

Where is that idea coming from? Its completely false. If wotc gave away a few DMGs at a convention does that mean they no longer hold ownership of their IP and you can go and OCR it, reprint it in some other format?

My original point is that partialy aimed at WotC and partialy at these boards and others, why does the ban on lst files exist while this same IP is being distributed in a diferent file format.

You're telescoping on the lst files needlessly. It has nothing to do with the lst files themselves, it has to do with pcgen violations of copyright laws, the data could have been written on granite stones or on the asses of korean hookers, forget lst files, pcgen used material which is protected under US copyright laws. Simple. If pcgen were to use etools data they would still be in violation, yes its really that simple.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Sm!rk: I will give you the benifit of the doubt in your selection of my quotation without including the previous sentince which it refered to. With that included it reads

What they are doing right now however is encouraging, or at least allowing with full knowlege, other people to enter IP that was not included in the release and then freely distribute it on the internet. Once this is done they are no longer in control of how that material is used or distributed.

This has nothing to do with your response. The apropriate example would be if they gave away free DMGs then said "We don't have enough money to give FRCSs free but anyone who wants to retype the information and print it can give the books away instead of us."

As for my focusing on lst files the same principle would aply to any format whether it be granite stones or anything else. I just happen to enjoy pcgen and the most useful format for me is lst files which are what is being banned.

As for whether pcgen is violating copyright laws that is the subject for a different thread, which you can take up with Mynex.

 

[Cergorach]

You're telescoping on the lst files needlessly. It has nothing to do with the lst files themselves, it has to do with pcgen violations of copyright laws, the data could have been written on granite stones or on the asses of korean hookers, forget lst files, pcgen used material which is protected under US copyright laws. Simple. If pcgen were to use etools data they would still be in violation, yes its really that simple.

So... What your saying is that Eric Noah (one of the daddies of 3ED&D) is doing something horribly illegal by posting the Monsters of Faerun as E-Tools downloads on his site? And if Fluid allows it, they to are in grave violation of IP infringement (or worse Copyright and Trademark infringements)?

Oh-my-jolly-gosh! The horror!

No offense, but frankly i don't really care that much. And i think a lot o other folks won't either...

Let's be honest, if WotC cracks down on the E-Tools support by the community now, they lose a valuable resource. And let's be honest again, they need all the resources/support they can, because otherwise E-Tools will be a pretty useless tool...

 

[Brown Jenkin]

So... What your saying is that Eric Noah (one of the daddies of 3ED&D) is doing something horribly illegal by posting the Monsters of Faerun as E-Tools downloads on his site? And if Fluid allows it, they to are in grave violation of IP infringement (or worse Copyright and Trademark infringements)?

Without permission from WotC, then Yes.

 

[smetzger]

Without permission from WotC, then Yes.

Just to confuse everything further. Game mechanics are not copyrightable. So, it is debatable if wether or not you would be in copyright violation.