D&D (2024) Fireball is a C Tier Spell

[James Gasik]

But there should be a way to build a mage... maybe sorcerer, that is all about blowing things up with massive damage. Fireball and other AoE spells have been nerfed every single version since 2e, and it shows. People were multi-classing fighter+sorcerer I hear to double cast fireball (nerfed in 5.5e I hear)... but to me that's just not ideal anyway. There should be a straight forward mage that can do great damage if managed strategically... with the whole glass-cannon risk factor, perhaps at the cost of most control spells... but there needs to be a way.

They were massively nerfed from 1e to 2e as well, with the introduction of damage caps on spells.

 

[Zardnaar]

How so?
Quicken Eldritch Blast is still 2 SP, and you now get 50% more SP at level 5.

Can't use innate Sorcery but that's not new.

Derp my bad misread some things. Wires crossed.

 

[Zardnaar]

They were massively nerfed from 1e to 2e as well, with the introduction of damage caps on spells.

Wasn't that massive as I doubt to many people played 11+.

Kinda like level limits. Most of the time eh.

 

[ECMO3]

sure, but really you are spending a feat that you can deal extra 4 damage at level 17.

At 17th level it would be an extra 6.5 damage (1d12) and also an opportunity to deliver a stunning strike at level 17.

Just compare it to an ASI; getting 2 points in dexterity gives you an extra 3 points of damage at level 17, or 5 points if you use FOB. So this is more extra damage than you would get from an ASI and as a half feat you usually get both the ASI damage boost and the additional attack damage boost.

Would you say an ASI is terrible?

Finally 6.5 dpr is assuming you don't have any other damage bonus on the dagger, which at level 17 you probably have another 5 or more damage due to buffs and magic. Our 12th level Monk in a game I am playing for example is wielding a Dragontooth dagger, so for him at level 11 it is an extra 1d10 dagger +1 magic +1d6 acid (10 total) without his dex bonus, and that is not the highest damage weapon he could have.

 

[mellored]

At 17th level it would be an extra 6.5 damage (1d12) and also an opportunity to deliver a stunning strike at level 17.

I don't really see it improving stunning strike much since it's limited to 1/turn.

Your first 2-5 attacks probably hit at least once, so you can stunning strike then.

More attacks is still more chances, but diminishing.

Just compare it to an ASI; getting 2 points in dexterity gives you an extra 3 points of damage at level 17. 5 points if you use FOB. So this is more extra damage than you would get from an ASI

That doesn't include the accuracy and AC buff.
Or taking +1 Dex and +1 Wis/Con.

Again. Not a bad feat. Just not great either. I'd give it a C.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't really see it improving stunning strike much since it's limited to 1/turn.

This is why it is so attractive for the extra attack. You stun one enemy with an attack (often at range by throwing a dagger) and you still get your full complement of other attacks on another enemy, usually the enemy who the party is concentrating on.

It is a control element and I see it in play all the time

To put this another way: What if I gave you a half feat that let you try to stun an enemy whenever you take the attack action without using up any of your attacks. That would be a pretty good feat and that is essentially what this does and it does damage to boot.

Your first 2-5 attacks probably hit at least once, so you can stunning strike then.

But you are doing two different things -
stunning an enemy (effectively stealing his turn and setting up allies) or on a save giving him half speed and an ally advantage while you are trying to drain the hit points and kill another enemy.

Every attack you use to try to stun one enemy is an attack you can't use to do damage to another enemy.

Stunned is most effective as a Control option and you should generally concentrate on draining the hit points of the enemies that are not being controlled. This is different if you are fighting enemies with a high armor class.

More attacks is still more chances, but diminishing.

Ok here we go, real combat from a recent game during a massive melee:

Shadow Monk is 1V1 on a Frightened Frost giant inside a zone of darkness, our Rogue and Druid who is supporting a Moonbeam are cornered by an Ogre and a Frightened Hill Giant. There are lots of other ogres and a few other Giants, most of them are either frightened due to dragon fear and Beguiling Twist or frightened and fleeing due to the Fear spell, but they are not relevant here.

The Monk attacks the Frost Giant with all 5 attacks and then uses nick to fling a dagger across the room (both long range and ranged attack in melee but throwing it from inside darkness so no disadvantage). Hits the Ogre and uses stunning strike on him. Now the Ogre loses his turn and is not a threat to the Druid. While he is stunned, the Ranger (me ) uses an attack to throw a net on him with an automatic save fail, basically making him lose another turn since he has no way to damage the net and has to use an action to free himself.

We also have a Rogue with Elven Accuracy in the party and using stunning strike on whatever enemy the Rogue is going to attack will give the Rogue 3-dice advantage even if the bad guy saves. We did not do that in this case (the Rogue was concentrating on one of the giants), but we do it often.

That doesn't include the accuracy and AC buff.
Or taking +1 Dex and +1 Wis/Con.

It does include the accuracy and AC buff as long as you have an odd dexterity and taking +1 Dex, +1 Wisdom for better AC only works if you have a odd score in both of those. +1 Constitution is a waste on a Monk IMO, again your constitution would need to be odd in addition to Dex and even in this case +3.5 damage and another attack at 4th level beats 4 more hit points by a wide margin.

There are times an ASI will work out better if you roll ability scores and manage odd Dex and Wisdom. On Standard Array the only way to get odd Wisdom and Dex on a Monk is with 17Dex/15Wisdom or 15Dex/15Wis after species bonuses, which is really bad generally. On point buy there may be some builds that offer that, but generally I think the optimal for point buy is 17/16 and a half feat.

 

[mellored]

This is why it is so attractive for the extra attack. You stun one enemy with an attack (often at range by throwing a dagger) and you still get your full complement of other attacks on another enemy, usually the enemy who the party is concentrating on.

If you stun an enemy, then allies get advantage and that automatically fail Dex saves. Seem like that's who they should be targeting.

You can auto-grapple them, run up a wall, and drop them, while everyone else pounds on them.

To put this another way: What if I gave you a half feat that let you try to stun an enemy whenever you take the attack action without using up any of your attacks. That would be a pretty good feat and that is essentially what this does and it does damage to boot.

You can already stun when you take an attack action.

Also, you can't use the Nick attack first. So you have to use at least 1 normal attack first. Meaning you need to have both within range.

But yes, it's a little more damage and a little more tactical flexibility.

Stunned is most effective as a Control option and you should generally concentrate on draining the hit points of the enemies that are not being controlled. This is different if you are fighting enemies with a high armor class.

Stunned enemies lose hit points faster.

Also, +2 Wis would probably help more with control. Again, you will very likely hit once a turn. But making stunning strike land.

It does include the accuracy and AC buff as long as you have an odd dexterity and taking +1 Dex, +1 Wisdom for better AC only works if you have a odd score in both of those. +1 Constitution is a waste on a Monk IMO, again your constitution would need to be odd in addition to Dex and even in this case +3.5 damage and another attack at 4th level beats 4 more hit points by a wide margin.

17 Dex /16 Wis / 15 Con seem like good default.

Or maybe
+1Dex +1 Wis at 4
+1 Wis Inspiring leader at 8
20 Dex at 12
20 Wis at 16

 

[ECMO3]

If you stun an enemy, then allies get advantage and that automatically fail Dex saves. Seem like that's who they should be targeting.

Sometimes, but not usually. The key to a fight is limiting an enemies actions. The enemey will get a certain number of actions to kill you. You take away actions by killing them, but you also take them away through options like Stun.

As I said on enemies on a high AC that is better, but usually PCs hit their target making the advantage on attacks not that important.

Also, you can't use the Nick attack first. So you have to use at least 1 normal attack first. Meaning you need to have both within range.

Not sure what this means, you can move after the first attack to make your nick attack.

But yes, it's a little more damage and a little more tactical flexibility.

It is another attack, it is a lot more tactical flexibility. Just like a fighters extra attack at high level is a lot more flexibility than a Paladin dealing the same damage

Stunned enemies lose hit points faster.

Most of them not much faster in tier 2+ using the 2024 rules. Not enough to matter

Also, +2 Wis would probably help more with control. Again, you will very likely hit once a turn. But making stunning strike land.

You will likely hit much more than once a turn, taking Wisdom is 5.5 points DPR less per round (6.5 less if you flurry) compared to taking this feat with an odd dexterity at level 4.

17 Dex /16 Wis / 15 Con seem like good default.

You can't do that on the Monk Standard Array and as I said earlier I think an extra 3.5 DPR with the feat is WAY better than an extra 4 hps. At 20th level an extra 6.5 DPR, even if you have no other damage bonuses, is still better than an extra 20hps.

3.5 DPR at 4th level is nominally a 23% boost in at will damage, 6.5 is still a 19% boost at 17th level, and that assumes no other bonuses on your attack. A +1 Con is not competitive with that on a character designed primarily for attacking in combat.

Or maybe
+1Dex +1 Wis at 4
+1 Wis Inspiring leader at 8

And then as a character you are substantially weaker from level 4-11 compared to someone who took mastery and a Dex ASI. You have the same AC, worse damage and worse attack.

At level 12+ it is probably a push depending on how many short rests you get.

There are some off-archetype single class builds this probably works for (Long Death being one), and alot of multiclass builds this works for but for most stereotypical Monk styles this is going to be a downgrade.

 

[Horwath]

At 17th level it would be an extra 6.5 damage (1d12)

used 60% hit chance

and also an opportunity to deliver a stunning strike at level 17.

Just compare it to an ASI; getting 2 points in dexterity gives you an extra 3 points of damage at level 17, or 5 points if you use FOB. So this is more extra damage than you would get from an ASI and as a half feat you usually get both the ASI damage boost and the additional attack damage boost.

Would you say an ASI is terrible?

Finally 6.5 dpr is assuming you don't have any other damage bonus on the dagger, which at level 17 you probably have another 5 or more damage due to buffs and magic. Our 12th level Monk in a game I am playing for example is wielding a Dragontooth dagger, so for him at level 11 it is an extra 1d10 dagger +1 magic +1d6 acid (10 total) without his dex bonus, and that is not the highest damage weapon he could have.

if you are point buying you start with dex&wis at 17&16, if you want 20/20 that leaves you with grand total of ONE feat to take.
and weapon mastery is really on the bottom if my list to take that has a dex or wis ASI attached.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Agreed. A good majority of my mob encounters include terrain too. Which will make these spells even more situational (alot of ambushing, creepy wall-hugging types) The best use has been when our Champion uses the '24 alertness background feat to "whistle" at/ trade initiative with our caster in a very wide open encounter... but even then, our mounted opponents will do stuff like group 3 and 3 with cover for archers.. not really as effective as cracked up to be