Fireball vs Orb - Demonweb Pits Data (no spoilers)

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think one thing we have to take into account as well is the figher/caster combo. If I kill a guy with an orb, then he's dead, and the fighter goes hacking into another guy for a few rounds. If I damage 3 guys with a fireball, the fighter might be able to finish them off with cleave and kill all 3 in the same round. Things like that can make a big difference.

Along with the above, one has to take into account that killing a single opponent quickly is often more tactically valuable than the total damage dealt.

I may average more damage with a Fireball against three opponents, but if the Orb is more reliable means to severely wounding a single opponent, I would choose the Orb. With a little teamwork, we are likely to remove an opponent before it gets a single action.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Along with the above, one has to take into account that killing a single opponent quickly is often more tactically valuable than the total damage dealt.

I may average more damage with a Fireball against three opponents, but if the Orb is more reliable means to severely wounding a single opponent, I would choose the Orb. With a little teamwork, we are likely to remove an opponent before it gets a single action.

To emphasize this point:

Say you're fighting 5 enemies. Tactic 1 is to attack one enemy at a time with focused fire until they die, rinse, repeat. Tactic 2 is to deal equal damage to everyone, so that they die at the same time. Assuming you can kill 1 enemy a round with Tactic 1 by the end of each round, the enemies will get 5+4+3+2+1 actions against you, 15 total. In order to get the same number of actions against you with Tactic 2, you have to kill all the enemies on round 3, or over fifty percent more damage per round (about 1.66 times).

And, even if you get this damage output with area effects, Tactic 2 is still inferior, since it will be harder for a cleric to keep up with the damage, enemies can retain flanking longer, its harder to move around, etc, through the battle. Also, you're taking those 15 actions against you over 3 rounds instead of over 5 rounds.

So, unless those area damage spells are doing significantly better (and that means about double and all the enemies are always getting caught in them while the PCs aren't) damage than the single spells, the single ones are still better.

 

[shmoo2]

Shmoo2, I'm not comfortable posting the complete encounter breakdown, since I'm not sure that it is a reasonable use copyrighted material.

Huh. Here's what the U.S. Copyright Office says on 'fair use'

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2.the nature of the copyrighted work;
3.amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Giving selected details on a module's encounters does not seem to violate these factors. In particular, our discussion is of a non-commercial nature, and the relevant stats are only a small portion of the total number of words in the module.

Since these stats on Ref, saves, touch AC and SR alone won't allow one to run the adventure (far from it) I don't see how they can affect the potential market for the module.

Note that our esteemed John Cooper regularly quotes much larger portions of WoTC stat blocks in his reviews such as this one:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=3221768

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Assuming you can kill 1 enemy a round with Tactic 1 by the end of each round, the enemies will get 5+4+3+2+1 actions against you, 15 total. In order to get the same number of actions against you with Tactic 2, you have to kill all the enemies on round 3, or over fifty percent more damage per round (about 1.66 times).

And if you a little lucky with the initiative roll you can open up with Orbs on round 1 & 2 and then bide your time with MMs from your wand during cleanup, it will be something 4+3+2+2+1 actions from 5 opponents.

It will take some extremely well placed Fireballs to keep up with that, even though your average damage with Fireballs is likely to be higher regardless.

 

[FireLance]

Along with the above, one has to take into account that killing a single opponent quickly is often more tactically valuable than the total damage dealt.

I may average more damage with a Fireball against three opponents, but if the Orb is more reliable means to severely wounding a single opponent, I would choose the Orb. With a little teamwork, we are likely to remove an opponent before it gets a single action.

Mind you, this assumes opponents of relatively equal strength. If you are facing one lieutenant and two mooks, it may be better to open up with an area effect in order to clear the field of weaker opponents before concentrating on the tougher ones left.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Mind you, this assumes opponents of relatively equal strength. If you are facing one lieutenant and two mooks, it may be better to open up with an area effect in order to clear the field of weaker opponents before concentrating on the tougher ones left.

That certainly could be true. Or the exact opposite could be true in the very same scenario, depending on the toughness of the mooks.

 

[Stalker0]

All of this debate leads me to the following conclusion:

Orbs spells at least sound like they are pretty good substitutes for blow up evocation spells. If that's true...they are broken. Evocation is the school to blow things up, its what it does. Conjuration gets a ton of cool things it can do besides damage, if it can now do damage almost as well that's not right.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That is my point of view, too.

If there is any significant ambiguity about whether or not Evocation is best for blowing things up, then we definitely have a real problem.

Nothing wrong with Conjuration being approximately as good or better for many corner cases. We are well beyond just corner cases.

 

[James McMurray]

How do you two feel about Horrid Wilting? Is it broken because it's a necromancy damage dealer?

 

[ThirdWizard]

How do you two feel about Horrid Wilting? Is it broken because it's a necromancy damage dealer?

It's a Fortitude save.