D&D 4E First Impressions of 4E / Predictions on 5E

[Pozeltum]

I've been away from most RPG's for almost 2 years now and logged on last night to discover 4E, and took some time to read through the site's 4E page. Here are my fresh, initial feelings about what I have read so far.

I am sure this has been pointed out many times, but 4E seems like it was written after the designers had a week long World of Warcraft play fest. It has WAY to much of a WoW feel to it, imo. No, it's not just that both have Warlocks, it's the core "feel" to the game itself.

Thinking about why WoTC would do this, the best conclusion I came up with is WoW has what, 9 million+ players. I'm sure WoW was many, many people's first encounter with a RPG or MMORPG. I'm thinking WoTC wants to tap into a new line of customers (most of us long time players will keep playing unless a new edition is just utterly horrible) who will find 4E and WoW a lot more familiar than 3E and WoW. Once these new customers are brought in, 5th edition (which I bet will come out sooner than 4E did) will return to a more classic style of DnD, which will get the old timers excited, which will rub off on the "new" recruits and get them excited. I'm not saying WoTC is an "evil" corporation trying to make as much money as they can, placing the money first over anything else. I'm saying they are a "Normal" corporation who is trying to make as much money as they can. (Heck, I'd do it if I owned the company) The 4E game can still be good, it just took the path it did because of the money factor, imo.

Putting the overall feel I have to the game to the side, I have mixed emotions. Alignment changes are good, along with what I've read on the combat rules. I prefer not using miniatures and using my imagination instead, but I think I'm part of a dying breed when it comes to that so leaving that in is better for the masses. They say that the overall rules are going to be simplified, but the also say that there will be TWO PHB, DMG, etc. right off the bat. Isn't that like buying cliff notes for a book, and the cliff notes have more pages than the book itself? The half-dragon race sounds like one of the designers used them in the games he DM's for, they went over good with his players so he stuck them in as a core race. Bad idea. Core races should be the basics (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, maybe Gnome). Classes are to much like Tank/DPS/CC etc., from MMO's once again. Then again I didn't like Monks as a core class in 3E, once again I think the core should be the "classics", if you can call them that.

So overall I think it's not looking good. I has doubts about 3E also, and though they weren't as bad as the ones I have for 4E thus far, I really enjoyed 3E in the end. So I will be sure to get all the core books, give them a good read, play a few games with a few different groups to see how it goes and go from there. Until then I'm gonna do some reading and play catch up with the rest of you folks.

Once again this is my INITIAL impression. I'm sure a ton will change the more I read. I know I gave it a bad overall summary, but I truly hope it turns out to be a great RPG.

 

[BeauNiddle]

What do you mean by a WoW feel? A fantasy game played with friends where you go on quests to earn xp and loot using a system based on mathematical randomness? Cause if you do then yes it's very WoWy.


The game is designed to be Fast! Fun! and Heroic! (Fast! Fun! and Furious! is already claimed by Savage Worlds) They decided that since people have gone to the effort of travelling to the game, creating characters and getting involved then the least the game can do for them is let them actually do something. For this reason a lot of systems have been streamlined (like the big ones - no Save or Die, always have something to do in every combat) to the small (no confirmation rolls for criticals, no counting the clock for buffs, traps being group efforts)

It would also appear they are trying to show their workings clearly. The system has a central mathematical core where they are trying to reveal as much as possible. This should make it easier for homebrewing to change the features they want (3rd ed showed how the systems were interconnected but that just meant you realised how much you had to do to change the smallest detail.) They also seem to be concentrating on 'silo'ing features. So you have in combat abilities and out of combat abilities. You have 3 primary magic items that change your effectiveness and 6 secondary magic items that just give temporary special abilities. You have at will / per encounter / per day abilities. You have combat spells and out of combat rituals. By seperating things out they keep feature creep under control and help balance classes. No longer do you have fighters who focus solely on combat vs fighters who spent every feat choice on background feats. No longer do you have casters who memorise only combat spells vs one who memorises only utility spells. It helps round out all characters but more importantly they mean they can keep track of the range of possibilities at any given stage.


As to things like races and classes then what defines a classic. A lot of people are willing to exclude Gnomes from that so if you limit yourself to classics you just find the list getting shorter over time, or worse you find yourselves shackled by some random choice an author made 30+ years ago. Classics can only be Classics if somebody gave them a chance when they first appeared (oh and roles have always existed in D&D it's just MMORPGs have given them silly acronyms)

 

[kennew142]

Do we need yet another thread rehashing this old trope. OMG! D&D has some elements of WoW, that happened to be in D&D in the first place, but we won't let reality stand in the way of beating a dead horse.

 

[Raith5]

I have never played WoW but I think the 4th ed designers have been very sensible in the ideas they have imported from WoW.

The key thing about 4th ed is that they have astutely identified some core problems with the 3.5 system: too much DM prep time, the idea that #rd ed only really worked smoothly from 5th to 12th level, slow combats, a boring magic system, sprawling number of additional core/ PRC classes, etc

If the designers use WoW (or anything else) to address these problems, great IMO

 

[Fifth Element]

Cool! A thread that compares 4E to WoW, and mentions 5E! What more could one ask for?

 

[Shazman]

I've been away from most RPG's for almost 2 years now and logged on last night to discover 4E, and took some time to read through the site's 4E page. Here are my fresh, initial feelings about what I have read so far.

I am sure this has been pointed out many times, but 4E seems like it was written after the designers had a week long World of Warcraft play fest. It has WAY to much of a WoW feel to it, imo. No, it's not just that both have Warlocks, it's the core "feel" to the game itself.

Thinking about why WoTC would do this, the best conclusion I came up with is WoW has what, 9 million+ players. I'm sure WoW was many, many people's first encounter with a RPG or MMORPG. I'm thinking WoTC wants to tap into a new line of customers (most of us long time players will keep playing unless a new edition is just utterly horrible) who will find 4E and WoW a lot more familiar than 3E and WoW. Once these new customers are brought in, 5th edition (which I bet will come out sooner than 4E did) will return to a more classic style of DnD, which will get the old timers excited, which will rub off on the "new" recruits and get them excited. I'm not saying WoTC is an "evil" corporation trying to make as much money as they can, placing the money first over anything else. I'm saying they are a "Normal" corporation who is trying to make as much money as they can. (Heck, I'd do it if I owned the company) The 4E game can still be good, it just took the path it did because of the money factor, imo.

Putting the overall feel I have to the game to the side, I have mixed emotions. Alignment changes are good, along with what I've read on the combat rules. I prefer not using miniatures and using my imagination instead, but I think I'm part of a dying breed when it comes to that so leaving that in is better for the masses. They say that the overall rules are going to be simplified, but the also say that there will be TWO PHB, DMG, etc. right off the bat. Isn't that like buying cliff notes for a book, and the cliff notes have more pages than the book itself? The half-dragon race sounds like one of the designers used them in the games he DM's for, they went over good with his players so he stuck them in as a core race. Bad idea. Core races should be the basics (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, maybe Gnome). Classes are to much like Tank/DPS/CC etc., from MMO's once again. Then again I didn't like Monks as a core class in 3E, once again I think the core should be the "classics", if you can call them that.

So overall I think it's not looking good. I has doubts about 3E also, and though they weren't as bad as the ones I have for 4E thus far, I really enjoyed 3E in the end. So I will be sure to get all the core books, give them a good read, play a few games with a few different groups to see how it goes and go from there. Until then I'm gonna do some reading and play catch up with the rest of you folks.

Once again this is my INITIAL impression. I'm sure a ton will change the more I read. I know I gave it a bad overall summary, but I truly hope it turns out to be a great RPG.

Actually, you did pretty well considering your admitted lack of knowledge about 4E. It's interesting to see that an "outsider's" perspective readily caught on to the blatant WOWification apparently present in the 4E rules. WotC has denied this, but we can see right through them. From the designers' blogs, you learn that many of them are WOW players. They threw WOW into the game with little thought because they thought it would make it more "hip" and accessible for the younger kids. They are essentially getting rid of older players for "potential" younger players. I hope it backfires on them.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

***********************

 

[Plane Sailing]

This thread is welcome to have first impressions of 4e, but making predictions about 5e will end up in getting closed because experience shows us that is pointless and disruptive at this point in time.

You also ought to know that talking about any potential WOW influences on D&D is a bit of a hot topic at the moment. There are some current threads which could be used to discuss that, but be sensitive yourself and don't be surprised if other people respond in a slightly ratty way.

If anyone is rude, don't respond to them but just report it to the moderators.

Thanks!

 

[Fifth Element]

WotC has denied this, but we can see right through them.

Please provide evidence for this denial. IIRC, Mearls posted about taking ideas from other media, with the quite reasonable attitude that you shouldn't reject an idea based solely on its source. Ideas should be judged on their own merits.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Actually, you did pretty well considering your admitted lack of knowledge about 4E. It's interesting to see that an "outsider's" perspective readily caught on to the blatant WOWification apparently present in the 4E rules. WotC has denied this, but we can see right through them. From the designers' blogs, you learn that many of them are WOW players. They threw WOW into the game with little thought because they thought it would make it more "hip" and accessible for the younger kids. They are essentially getting rid of older players for "potential" younger players. I hope it backfires on them.

I remember when it was obvious that 3E was going to be MTG, and we were able to see right through their denials.