Five Alignments?

[ProfessorCirno]

Regardless of the quality of 40K fluff, it is still a perfect example.

Ummm.. I'm not sure where I've seen anywhere that it doesn't claim Chaos is, at least, mindlessly destructive. When you give it intellect, it can have morality. Then it becomes evil.

4e chaos, without exception so far, is not a political or moral statement. It is raw destruction.

Well, that last bit is what I'm getting at. There were quite a few arguments in these here parts over how some people felt Wizards was implying that chaos was inherently evil, and quite a few people said "No way, they're not saying chaos is evil at all!"

I'm glad it's summer, because some fried eggs sound good right now

...That joke was horrible. I was hinting at the whole "egg on their face" thing, for the, er, everyone that will inevitably not get it.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

In my eyes it is a corrupted Lawful Good, it sees itself as doing good and it very strictly believes in order and a maintained society. But, it is rotten to the core in its methods and actions.

 

[VannATLC]

I have a confession.

I forcibly stopped my self describing them as lawful evil >.>

Mostly because they are evil in the short-term, and fundamentally good in the long term.

Which makes it a liberalist/conservatist issue.. >.>

Wanna be free but Warp-food? Or want to preserve the human race?

 

[hong]

Well, that last bit is what I'm getting at. There were quite a few arguments in these here parts over how some people felt Wizards was implying that chaos was inherently evil, and quite a few people said "No way, they're not saying chaos is evil at all!"

Destruction != evil

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I have a confession.

I forcibly stopped my self describing them as lawful evil >.>

Mostly because they are evil in the short-term, and fundamentally good in the long term.

Which makes it a liberalist/conservatist issue.. >.>

Wanna be free but Warp-food? Or want to preserve the human race?

Well, to be fair, in Warhammer, Chaos really IS evil, so "lawful evil" can't really exist, since law inorexably IS good.

 

[Sojorn]

Destruction != evil

Oh, come on, next you'll be saying that you can't be dedicated to the ideals of good AND destruction at the same time.

Oh, hey, wait a tic... >_>

 

[VannATLC]

Discipline, at least, is required, since the destabilisation of the Immaterium. W40K makes no attempt at calling an objective Good or Evil, and I think thats a core part of the philosophy. The Imperium *is* Evil, in the eyes of many, many people, and Good in the eyes of other.

I mean, nothing is more lawful than the Tyranids, or the Necrons.. and they are anything but Good.

In fact, within a kind of oppostional scale, the Necrons are the Polar opposites of Chaos. Unchanging Order in the face of permenant Chaos.

(I used to work for GW, and can go on.. and on.. and on.. about the Lore.. but this isn't really the place.) Some of the philosophies enshrined are quite excellent, and much of the political commentary that some of the writers disguise as race lore is great

 

[lutecius]

Well, to be fair, in Warhammer, Chaos really IS evil, so "lawful evil" can't really exist, since law inorexably IS good.

No. In WH, law and chaos are both evil i.e. extremes are evil and good lies somewhere in the middle (well, maybe a little closer to law) if it exists at all. The empire is definitely not good. And i think those star eating borg things are definitely LE.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's just that people have taken it as read that LG is more worthy than G for some reason.

Not me.

The new system- linear or not- that has LG and CE rating their own designation while other gradations of G&E are simply lumped together in an undifferentiated mass is weak.

I would have been happier with a 3 point G-U-E system (with PC's methods to achieving their ends being undefined by Law or Chaos) than this hybrid mess.

Ahem.

Hong, brevity may be the soul of wit, but I'm trying to pack for a road trip to Austin and I'm not quite getting what you're saying to me.

Are you agreeing with or criticizing me?

Just to clarify my position:

1) I think the old 9 point alignment system is the best alignment system out there right now.

2) I think a 3 point G-U-E system would be better than 4Ed's proposed 5 point system.

3) I'm not making any judgement as to whether LG is the best kind of good or not, just that if you're going to break out special nomenclature for one kind of good (and likewise for evil), then other reference points need to be identified as well. You can't cover everything perfectly, but you'll have a better overall framework within which to operate.

To analogize, the 9 point system is like the famous nutrition pyramid, distinguishing between Meats, Dairy, Grains, Fruits, Vegetables etc. with examples. Its not perfect, it doesn't have every detail about nutrition that matters, but its a handy tool.

A simpler 3 point nutrition system would distinguish between Drink, Food and Inedibles- less detailed than the 9 point system, but its streamlined in such a way that it is quick and easy to learn, and therefore also quite useful.

In contrast, a 5 point nutrition system distinguishes between Drink, Food, Inedibles, Dairy and Veggies. It just begs questions right out of the gate...like why do Dairy and Veggies get special attention? Did they somehow deserve it? And why don't Meats rate their own special designation? Why not Meats and Grains instead of Dairy and Veggies.

IOW, the 4Ed 5 point system is not as helpful as it could be. It is a step back from the previous regime in terms of usefulness. The details it adds to a potentially simpler system simply make it look like someone strapped rockets to a parrot.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Well, really, I think the morality of 40k is "Everything sucks because it is GRIM and DARK," but the ideal of the Imperium really is "Order is best. Law is best. Lawfulness is best. His Most Holy Emperor is better then all these combined, but that's because he IS all these combined."

After all...

BY THE EMPEROR
Thou shalt attend to thy work at the appointed hour
Thou shalt seek no reward but the satisfaction of thy Master
Thou shalt know thy Duties
Thou shalt Obey thy Master in all matters
Thou shalt rejoice in thy Service
Thou shalt be grateful of thy Master's Favour
Thou shalt not make improper use of thy Master's comm-links, nor his las-lines, nor his opticon either
Thou shalt be glad of thy Master's punishment, for it is deserved, and it improves thee
Thou shalt not speak but Praise of thy Master
Thou shalt not look upon the words of the Heretic nor speak of them


Or, to simplify;

"A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy"