Fixing Quick Draw

[Anubis]

Yeah, I said it. Fixing Quick Draw. Most of you are prolly like, WTF? Well it does need fixing, but not because it's broken, but rather because it's pointless.

Quick question. How many people here have every used a sword and had the sheath? I don't know about you guys, but it only takes me a split second to draw my katana from its sheath, and I'm no trained swordfighting professinal. As such, why should a feat be needed? That and the fact that a lot of weapons can't be realistically sheathed to begin with (warhammer, greataxe, greatsword,etc.).

Let's assume, though, that there is a point to Quick Draw. The problem then is that it's pitifully weak. So I look and notice that "stow weapon" is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Perfect! See the fix?

If not, here it is. Quick Draw should allow not only the drawing of a weapon as a free action, but should also allow one to stow it as a free action without suffering an attack of opportunity. I do know that stowing a weapon takes more time than drawing it, so this is a perfect way to fix it, and nothing at all is thrown off-balance by it. The name might be weird for it, but it'd be a worthy feat at least. (I mean how often is it used? Very few combats start with your opponent within 5 feet, so you'd have to take a move action anyway, and drawing a weapon is part of a move action.

I would also proposed that drawing a weapon and readying a shield should be doable in the same action, or clerics would never be using them at all. Weapons and shields get in the way of somantic components after all (although I house ruled already that a cleric can cast even with a weapon and shield by virtue of my rule that somantic components for Divine spells take only one hand, so a cleric can hang the shield from his arm while switching the weapon to the hand and using the free hand for a moment to cast). I also think two-weapon fighting should allow drawing both weapons as one.

So how about it? Sound good? All of it?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like it! Nay, I love it!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hmmm. I disagree with the contention that Quickdraw is pointless to begin with so maybe I'm not the target audience. Quickdraw has several advantages:

1. It gives you the ability to switch weapons without sacrificing the ability to full attack.

This is useful for characters wielding reach weapons other than the spiked chain when they switch weapons to attack an adjacent foe.

It is useful for characters who have multiple weapons to deal with material DR.

It is also useful for characters who want to choose between magical weapons optimized for different foes. A character, for instance, who had a cold iron, undead bane ghost touch warhammer and a brilliant energy wounding longsword would be able to draw and attack with the optimal weapon.

2. It also gives the ability to switch weapons in the middle of a full attack.

A character could for instance quickdraw and throw javalins or daggers at non-adjacent foes after dropping an adjacent foe with his second attack (thus precluding any move actions).

As for the rule itself, it will make Quickdraw a more attractive feat, but I don't think it will break much of anything either.

As for the final contention about clerics and shields--that's why my clerics use bucklers or two handed weapons..... There's nothing about D&D that says a cleric has to be able to cast spells with a heavy shield in one hand and a mace in the other. Since clerics are already one of the strongest classes, I see no need for that house rule.

 

[Anubis]

Hmmm. I disagree with the contention that Quickdraw is pointless to begin with so maybe I'm not the target audience. Quickdraw has several advantages:

1. It gives you the ability to switch weapons without sacrificing the ability to full attack.

This is useful for characters wielding reach weapons other than the spiked chain when they switch weapons to attack an adjacent foe.

It is useful for characters who have multiple weapons to deal with material DR.

It is also useful for characters who want to choose between magical weapons optimized for different foes. A character, for instance, who had a cold iron, undead bane ghost touch warhammer and a brilliant energy wounding longsword would be able to draw and attack with the optimal weapon.

2. It also gives the ability to switch weapons in the middle of a full attack.

A character could for instance quickdraw and throw javalins or daggers at non-adjacent foes after dropping an adjacent foe with his second attack (thus precluding any move actions).

1. Only if you drop the weapon, as stowing a weapon is currently a move action. As far as role-playing goes, it would seem a bit weird to just drop your precious weapons on the ground.

2. Again, only if you drop the weapon you already have out.

Basically, my fix for Quick Draw allows you to do 1 and 2 without dropping your weapons on the ground. It just strikes me as silly that heroes and professional adventurers would just drop whatever they're using to pull out something else (unless it was desperation, but that's not a common scenario, or at least it shouldn't be).

My cleric house rule was really an afterthought. My main point is that Quick Draw should allow you to freely stow weapons so that the things you spoke of are possible to do without dropping your weapons on the ground (which also means you get attacked when you try to pick them up if you wanna switch back).

 

[Hawken]

Quick Draw actually doesn't need a fix. It's not broken to begin with and allows you to do more than one thing with the feat; draw weapons as a free action, and make a full attack with thrown weapons. That's something few feats do.

What you're thinking of is a feat to go along with it allowing you to sheathe weapons. Maybe call it Quick Sheathe or Retract Weapons. Something like that. And as its own feat, I couldn't see a problem with it. But not doing what you're wanting it to do AND Quick Draw all in one feat.

Then again, there are plenty of arguments for this. Sheathing weapons do take time. So, I could see plenty of DMs not allowing this feat. It does and should take time to sheathe weapons. Sharp weapons need to be replaced without cutting yourself and heavier or larger weapons take more effort (extra straps, ties, etc) to secure them. Even if a feat like this was allowed, it would seem perfectly reasonable to still cause it to draw attacks of opportunity. Because, for that precious second or few, you're focused on replacing your weapon and not attacking or defending against your foe. Trying to sheathe a greatsword that was strapped across your back without looking or paying attention could inflict pretty serious damage if you're not paying attention. Or if you forget that last strap holding your greatclub to your pack and it swings down and slams into the back of your knee, you deserve it.

Dropped weapons can always be regained. In countless movies, when the hero is disarmed or drops a weapon, what does he do? He runs, comes back over to it and either picks it up on the run or somehow grabs it and then gets back to fighting. Yeah, if you bend over to pick up a dropped weapon while standing in front of an enemy, you deserve to get whacked. If you draw your enemy away and come running back for it, that's something else.

 

[Anubis]

I just don't think Quick Draw gives enough bang for the buck. The situations you described don't happen all that often in the course of a normal adventure. Second, with bigger weapons, you can't sheath them or stow them to begin with, you carry it around. You know, like the barbarian laying his greatclub on his shoulder or a big fighter doing the same with the haft of a greataxe. I don't think any two-handed weapons can truly be sheathed.

It's easy enough in reality to do what's stated in Quick Draw. Drawing a weapon doesn't take any time at all unless you're stupid or physically incompetent. There are plenty of real life techniques and martial arts that show how to sheath a weapon as quickly as you draw it, and that's what Quick Draw should do. Given the few feats you geat, making you have to take two feats to Quick Draw and Quick Stow would, I think, be unbalanced. No one at all would ever take the feat.

It makes sense realistically and in the essence of normal fantasy for Quick Draw to do both.

 

[Hawken]

The situations you described don't happen all that often in the course of a normal adventure.

What? Every round of combat has the potential for use with Quick Draw. And, judicious non-combat uses of it can off-set or even prevent combat from occuring. Adventures can have any number of encounters or combat in them where this feat could potentially be used. If your games are combat-lite, that's something else. But that doesn't mean anything is wrong with the feat, just that you need to find a game where there is more combat so you can get more out of it.

Second, with bigger weapons, you can't sheath them or stow them to begin with, you carry it around. You know, like the barbarian laying his greatclub on his shoulder or a big fighter doing the same with the haft of a greataxe.

This isn't exactly true either. Greatswords and many other weapons would have sheathes, if anything just to protect the blade. If they don't that's the prerogative of the owner. And weapons could easily be stored. You're making broad, generalized statements that don't apply to everyone or possibly even a lot of people. And almost everyone has been in a game where someone has said "I draw my (insert two handed weapon)", or done it themselves. If its being drawn, its kept somewhere and in some manner to keep it from bruising or slicing you with each step you take.

Drawing a weapon doesn't take any time at all unless you're stupid or physically incompetent.

Not knowing how to quick draw is not a benchmark for stupidity, or physical incompetence. And name-calling and insults don't prove your point either. Maybe you meant to say, "Drawing a weapon doesn't take any time at all if you have the proper training."?

There are plenty of real life techniques and martial arts that show how to sheath a weapon as quickly as you draw it, and that's what Quick Draw should do.

For certain weapons only. Quick Draw is a feat that applies to any weapon. Also, the techniques you mention take months, if not years, of training to learn how to do it and require weekly, if not daily, practice to maintain that skill. I'd say taking a feat would be a good enough measure for acquiring that level of proficiency with weapons.

Given the few feats you geat, making you have to take two feats to Quick Draw and Quick Stow would, I think, be unbalanced. No one at all would ever take the feat.

Feats are not built based on how many or how few a character gets. And "few" is relative. Fighters get a lot more than a few and monks and rangers get plenty of virtual or extra feats as well. Maybe a cleric or rogue get just a "few" feats. Your line of reasoning here is a little flawed. And plenty of people take Quick Draw. People might not be inclined to take a "Quick Sheathe" feat, because it's largely unnecessary. If you drop a weapon, from switching to another in combat, odds are, you're not going to need the one you dropped until the battle is over. Even if you do need something you dropped, you can move around and come back for it, or have your teammates keep the target busy while you retrieve it.

It makes sense realistically and in the essence of normal fantasy for Quick Draw to do both.

Not based on your reasons. You're using broad generalizations, misleading statements and red herrings to try to make your points without actually presenting much any convincing evidence. If you were trying to convince me to put that into my game using the arguments you have made, you wouldn't get it.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Clearly you'd like to houserule it for your game and you're going to do it.

Go ahead! Tinkering is fun. It's your game.

I would however contend that in the RAW, Quick Draw, for the right PC, can be a great feat. Most of us rely upon the "draw while taking a move action if your BAB is +1 or better" rule. But I have been in situations as a PC where I've lost my weapon, had it sundered, or just wanted something else in my hands. Without Quick Draw, I couldn't do it. Since I've seen players use QD to draw wands, get things out of pockets, etc, I think it's fine as is. For the "weapon master" type PC, it's a really useful feat. Happened in a game two weeks ago. The guy with multiple swords dropped his sword to get his bow out. Then an ogre came up to him and engaged him in hand-to-hand. He did have a spare sword, but no Quick Draw. He lost an iterative attack and probably had to waste an entire round on just an ogre. At 10th level.

If you go with the second feat idea (which I'd also allow), then I wouldn't even give it prerequisites.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Quick Draw is the way it is for game mechanics reasons...

if you can quick-sheath weapons as a free action...Fighter carrying a LSword and Reach Weapon..

Consider for a moment the implications with...

Whirlwind Attack....
or
Great Cleave {or whatever teh one is that lets you step 5'}...

Quick Sheath is not a good idea.

 

[harperscout]

I (much to my group's chagrin) am constantly making use of the quick-draw feat. As stated, I generally have to change weapons for a myriad of reasons. Here is how it goes. I am a Scout from the CA.

- Round 1: Move full move to get into long bow range. Long bow out, attempting to do some early damage. - Without quick draw, I couldn't move and then shoot.
- Round 2: Must move at least 10 feet (Scout), drop my long bow, draw my long sword, and attack. - Thanks to quick draw, I get an attack
- Round 3: Cornered, can't move my 10 feet, draw my short sword to fight with two weapons - Thanks to quick draw, I can get both attacks.
- Round 4: Realize I am fighting something with damage reduction, drop the short sword, draw the cold iron dagger. Thanks to quick draw, I still get two attacks.
- Round 5: Ranger drops: -6 HP. Thanks to quick draw, I drop the long sword (non-magical), draw the wand, stab the demon, move 10 feet.
- Round 6: discharge the wand on the Ranger I moved next to (I used the wand because I was also a Nenthyr Hunter from Unapproachable East Book in FR).

You see the point I am trying to make. This is a real senario that happened to our group last session just two weeks ago. Admittedly, my character requires about an hour to retrieve all his weapons after combat, that are scattered about the field, but thanks to quick draw I was able to really maximize my situations.

I don't think quick draw is broken at all. I certainly wouldn't add more attributes to the feat as it stands. I agree that the new feat "quick sheath" or "retract item" is a good addition to the game though.

I think if your players aren't making use of the feat, or don't see its advantages, maybe they just aren't thinking of it in such a tactical way.

As for the Cleric shield/casting spells thing - I too just rule that they can cast with a shield on... I mean if you are deft enough to cast a spell while wearing full plate mail, I can't believe that a shield is going to be much of a hinderance.