Fixing the Fighter - Making room for the warlord, ranger, barbarian, rogue, and more.

Wiseblood

Adventurer
Consider this checklist:

Do you use magic? No.
Do you sneak around murdering things? No.
Do you go berserk? No.

Your only option in the PH is fighter.

That's pretty broad. .

This argument is flawed.
Fighters use magic though most of them don't cast spells.
Anyone can sneak around and murder things.
Going berzerk is role playing right? Unless you meant the subclass of barbarian in which case the totem warrior doesn't go berzerk.

So the options left after the checklist are all classes.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
So the options left after the checklist are all classes.
Very funny.

Now, in what passes for 5e jargon: Using the PH, the Fighter is left to cover any concept that isn't a Thief, Assassin, or Berserker, and which doesn't include any sort of magical powers (all other classes, plus the EK, Totem Barbarian, and AT). That's pretty broad.

The Fighter class has always been overly generic & broad, Mearls himself has groused a bit about it.
Maybe it didn't really warrant mentioning? ::shrug::
 

dave2008

Legend
Let's see what it takes to open up the fighter in order to make it nicer.

What works...
Fighting Style: We've already seen new options, so we could just make a few new ones.
3, 7, 10, 15: sub-classes are flexible. Again, just make a few new ones.
4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 19: ABI's are also flexible.
9, 13: Indomitable... it's works for anyone, but it's pretty... meh.


What needs fixed...
1: Second Wind: this need to be flexible.
2,5,11,17,20 Multi-attack: The main issue. You need a way to convert the damage into effects.

What may need fixed...
2, 17: Action Surge: Generic action is flexible, but it implicitly scales with multi-attack. So if that get's changed...




My Suggestions:

Level 1: Greatly expand Fighting Style: Choose 2 fighting styles and gain an additional choice at level 6, 9, 13, and two at level 17.
*Second Wind and Indomitable are now fighting style choices.

Level 2: Action Surge -> Combat Reflexes: At the end of a creature turns (including your own), you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack.


Level 5,11,20: Multi-Attack -> Improved Combat Reflexes: You have an additional reaction each round.

I haven't gone through the rest yet, but I really like the start. Very flexible and ripe for a lot of options. I would probably use something like this to replace the PHB fighter.
 

IMO, they should do that for all classes.

Suggested Illusionist Spells:
Suggested Storm Cleric Spells:
Suggested Fey Invocations:
etc...

I think they were trying to avoid "there is a right way to play a given subclass", but I think the value of having a list like this for new/casual players is far greater than the minor cost of certain purposefully obtuse people on certain message boards who would decry that "WotC is saying I play my (insert name of class here) wrong" (and honestly I think those people get pleasure from complaining, so it isn't really a cost to them either).
 

Satyrn

First Post
Fair.
Would "Champion Suggested Fighting Styles: Second Wind, Defensive, Brutal Critical, ..." work well enough for that
Yes. Especially if you suggest 2 or 3 other "packages." Perhaps a paladin, ranger, barbarian, etc, or whatever combinations you think would make most sense.
 

phantomK9

Explorer
IMO using a dice pool prevents a simple fighter.
I've never found using maneuvers to be overly complex, but of course that may be just me. I understand the desire to "keep it simple" with the Champion, but our group finds it far too simple and kind of boring.

Where as using fighting style gives you flexibility for things like +2 to hit with bows, or +1 AC, as well as dice. In addition to other maneuvers.
No doubt fighting styles are great. I would not get rid of them at all. Hope my suggestion didn't convey that.
 

The Old Crow

Explorer
Level 1: Greatly expand Fighting Style: Choose 2 fighting styles and gain an additional choice at level 6, 9, 13, and two at level 17.
*Second Wind and Indomitable are now fighting style choices.

I just want to say I greatly approve of this idea. Fighters should get multiple styles, and more as they level, and not have interesting fighting styles gated behind the optional feat system.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
The answer to all your FRPG woes, I give you Steel Dragon's ULTIMATE FANTASY RPG: FIGHTER

The Fighter

Primary Ability: Strength. You must have a minimum strength of 10 to be a Fighter.
HD: 12 + Con. mod. at 1st level, +d12 + Con. mod. per level to 10th after. Then +4 per level.
Armor: All/any Armor, Shields.
Weapons: All/any weapons.
Skills: Athletics, Combat Sense, + two player choice.
Attack Bonus: As your prime ability, you add your Str. mod. to attack rolls with any weapon.
Magic Bonus: None.
Limitations/Restrictions: Characters of any Player Race can be a Fighter. Any alignment is available to fighters.

@ 1st Level: Combat Expertise
Add +2 to any attack or damage roll, player's choice with each usage, as many times per day as you have levels.

Battle Stamina
Level + Str. mod times per day your renewed spirit and endurance in the heat of battle carrires you on when others would surely falter. At any point when you have lost half or more of your HP, using this feature (your action for the round) restores 5 + Str. mod. HP.

@ 2nd Level: Overwhelm
When attacking creatures of 1 or less HD, you make as many attacks as you have levels, to a maximum of 5, per round.

@ 3rd Level: Critical Attack
Level times per day, you choose to put everything you've got behind a blow. A successful hit deals double damage, including all relevant modifiers.

Fighting Style
Choose one Fighting Style that you've acquired, learned or otherwise figured out.

@ 4th Level: Formidable Physique
One + Str. mod times per day you can reroll a failed Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution based skill roll or ability check.

@ 5th Level: Ability Boost
Add +1 to your Primary Ability and +1 to another ability (not your prime) of your choice. If your Primary Ability is already at its maximum allowance, you can apply the +1 to any other ability of your choice.

Extra Attack
When you make a weapon attack, you strike 2 times in a single round. Roll 2 separate attacks. They may be on the same or different targets within reach of the weapon used.

@ 6th Level: Fighting Style
Choose one Fighting Style that you've acquired, learned or otherwise figured out.

Champion's Renown
You are +2 to all interactions with other fighters and Warrior classes who are your level or lower. Commoners who share your moral alignment (Good, Neutral, Evil) will follow your instructions and provide reasonable assistance, almost without question.

If you wish, beginning at 6th level or any level after, you attract followers. You find or are approached by 2d6 fighters not more than half your level, who seek your instruction, protection, and/or expertise. They will follow you faithfully, even into combat.

@ 7th Level: Overwhelm
You can now make 5 strikes in a single attack when attacking creatures of 3 or less HD.

@ 8th Level: Combat Mastery
Your Combat Expertise bonus now appleis to both attack and damage rolls.

@ 9th Level: Fighting Style
Choose one Fighting Style that you've acquired, learned or otherwise figured out.

@ 10th Level: Ability Boost
Add +1 to your Primary Ability and +1 to another ability (not your prime) of your choice. If your Primary Ability is already at its maximum allowance, you can apply the +1 to any other ability of your choice.

Extra Attack
When you make a weapon attack, you strike 3 times in a single round. Roll 3 separate attacks. They may be on the same target or separate targets within 5' of you.

@ 11th Level: Indomitable Warrior
Your Combat Expertise bonus is now +5 to attack and damage rolls.

@ 12th Level: Ultimate Champion: Fighter
You are an exemplar of your class. As the Ultimate Fighter you gain the following benefits:
  • Add +2 to your Primary ability score. This attribute can now exceed racial maximums to a high score of 20.
  • Your Combat Expertise can be used at will/every attack and your Battle Stamina feature at will, when you are below half your maximum HP, whether you have available uses of the features or not.
  • Choose a fourth final Fighting Style and all of your Fighting Style bonuses are now +3.
FIGHTING STYLES
Archer: +2 to attacks with pulled (long or short) bows. You pull and fire twice per round whether the bow is nocked or not..
Crossbow Expert: +2 to hit with crossbows. You can reload and fire each round, 2 per round with light crossbows, 1 per round with heavy.
Brawler: +2 to grapple and hit with unarmed strikes.
Defender: +2 to AC as long as you have a weapon or shield in hand.
Dual-Wielder: +2 to attacks made with a second light melee weapon. You can make two attacks per round while wielding light melee weapons.
Mounted Expert: +2 to weapon attacks made from horseback or a similar mount.
Reached Expert: +2 to attacks with staves, spears, and polearms.
Skirmisher: +2 to attack rolls when attacking with surprise. Add 10' of movement during comba trounds as long as you aren't in heavy armor.
Slayer: +2 to damage rolls with heavy and/or versatile weapons used with two-hands.
Weapon Expert: +2 to attacks with a single handed weapon type (swords, axes, etc...) of your choice. You can take this style multiple times for different weapons.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] You can see my "deep thoughts" on identifying the fighter's problems & creating design solutions here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?535057-The-Warrior

If you're serious about class (re)design, I recommend this blog post as well: https://lootthebody.wordpress.com/2...lass-design-milestones-thematics-and-details/

Tl;dr The problems with the fighter class run deeper than "needs to do more than multi-attack", and can be identified in both concept and design.

Conceptually, the fighter has lost signature features giving it flavor as editions of D&D evolved, without anything filling that void. I argue that subclass is where this flavor *should* happen.

Design-wise... the fighter (like the rogue) is missing a 2nd level feature that most classes have. Also, the fighter is missing a 5th-level feature in addition to Extra Attack, whereas the barbarian, paladin, and ranger all get another feature at 5th. There also can be dissonance in Second Wind's self-healing, depending on the group you play with (I present Parrying as an alternative feature). Indomitable is widely regarded as underpowered and possibly merits a buff. Even the base fighter includes tracking uses/# abilities that not every fighter player wants to track; it's very possible to present "active" & "passive" options for a fighter that are roughly equally powerful.
 
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mellored

Legend
[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] You can see my "deep thoughts" on identifying the fighter's problems & creating design solutions here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?535057-The-Warrior
Looks similar. We both expanding the fighting styles to include manuvers and tricks. Though I like your idea of splitting non-combat and combat talents into seperate pools. And might steal a few of your talents.

Though, i don't have an issue with extra ASI. They already do a decent job of adding character and options to the class.
(Of course, I'd prefer to get rid of ability scores altogether, but I doubt that will happen).

Tl;dr The problems with the fighter class run deeper than "needs to do more than multi-attack", and can be identified in both concept and design.
I agree, but i feel that multi-attack a major roadblock holding the fighter back from being other things. All your power is stuck in one action. And any alternitive action you make needs to compete with that whole block of scaling damage.

Your Hail of Arrows talent for instance, doesn't scale. So between level 1 and 4, it's extremely powerful. Mostly balanced at 5-10, and then extremely niche after level 11.

But by splitting mutli-attack into chunks, you gain a lot of flexibility. You could, for instance, trade 2 attacks for Hail of Arrows.
 

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