D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter

[billd91]

1) Bogus projection of intent on an intimate, drawn-out social scale (a card game, a parlay, a duplicitous action like a double cross, maintaining the veneer of an undercover agent, etc) should definitely fall under the purview of Charisma. There are micro, sensory cues that are being manipulated (facial expressions, extremely subtle postures, mood subterfuge, voice inflection/cadence/tone) and are either empathically read or obtusely ignored/undiscovered. That is definitely Charisma. But what of the instantaneous, non-intimate interchange on the athletic field where people are moving at high speeds, information is conveyed/parsed/processed and decisions are made in micro-seconds (at an unconscious level). Are these athletic interchanges in the same vein as the former; Charisma vs Will? Flick of the Wrist in 3.x was modeled off of Thievery (and therefore Dexterity, hand-speed, coordination in legerdemain etc). I always found that considerably better. One of my PCs had that feat but didn't take combat feint (normal feint was unusable as it was an action economy nightmare).

2) The term "suddeness" is used to describe athletic explosiveness (burst); The ability to leap explosively multiple times, stop and cut on a dime and switch field at full speed and get back to full speed immediately, the quick release of a football/shot (rather than an elongated motion which telegraphs), the ability to get to top speed from a standstill almost immediately. If we could have the granularity, these things would best be modeled by a combination of Strength and Dexterity. However, if we have to use just one (as we tend to have to do in D&D), which ability score would you choose? Should that choice interact with the above scenarios at all?

Strength is reasonable for explosiveness checks. But I'd still go with Dex for legerdemain, Charisma for projecting intent, and Wisdom for defense of most of those situations. I advise more emphasis on multiple attributes in general rather than focusing on a single attribute. And if the fighter wants to pump-fake but doesn't have the Charisma to pull it off, sucks to be him.

Some judgments I'd make:

- A quarterback/running back tandem performs a play-action fake causing the linebackers to crash the line of scrimmage, abandoning deep middle coverage. Dex vs Wis/Perception

- A quarterback stares down the right side of the field drawing the safety 10 steps in that direction; outside of the hash-mark. When the safety vacates the seam, the quarterback hits the tight end running down it. Cha vs Wis/Sense motive

- A running back jukes right, plants his foot and cuts back left, leaving a tackler in his wake, scrambling for nothing but air. Str vs Dex/Reflex

- A pitcher throws an 84 mile per hour change-up with the exact same motion and armspeed in which he just threw a 94 mph fastball by a hitter. The hitter is foolishly out in front on the change-up, swinging and missing and screwing himself into the ground. Dex vs Wis/Perception

- A basketball player in the post performs an up-fake, causing the defender to leave his feet. He then pivots past the defender, stepping through and scoring an uncontested layup. Cha vs Wis/Sense motive

- A hockey forward behind the net, in the peripheral vision of the goalie, skates hard right, drawing the goalie to that post. He spins, stick-handling the puck to the opposite side of the net for a wraparound score. Dex vs Dex/Reflex maybe

 

[Remathilis]

Well, you can flip this around just as easily.

Wizard: "I am trying, but the arcane forces are resisting my grasp! My conduits to the Elemental Planes are frayed!" (In other words, make the in-game spell slots a primarily metagame mechanic like the Fighter's powers.)

Fighter: "I am trying, but these guys are on to my tricks!" or "I'm doing my best, but I'm wearing down!"

In other words - if you pick a ridiculous explanation, it shouldn't be a surprise that it will sound ridiculous.

-O

You know, I could ALMOST buy this for an encounter power. But a daily?

Wizard: Crap! More orcs! Fighter, line up that Serpent Dance Strike like you did against the ones in the last room!
Fighter: Uh, I can't do that again today. How about a nice Tide of Iron?
Wizard: ...

I might believe the stars align for a maneuver like CaGI or Sweeping Blow only happen once an encounter, but the stars aligning for Dizzying Blow only happen once per day, every day like clockwork?

 

[Remathilis]

Strength is reasonable for explosiveness checks. But I'd still go with Dex for legerdemain, Charisma for projecting intent, and Wisdom for defense of most of those situations. I advise more emphasis on multiple attributes in general rather than focusing on a single attribute. And if the fighter wants to pump-fake but doesn't have the Charisma to pull it off, sucks to be him.

Some judgments I'd make:

- A quarterback/running back tandem performs a play-action fake causing the linebackers to crash the line of scrimmage, abandoning deep middle coverage. Dex vs Wis/Perception

- A quarterback stares down the right side of the field drawing the safety 10 steps in that direction; outside of the hash-mark. When the safety vacates the seam, the quarterback hits the tight end running down it. Cha vs Wis/Sense motive

- A running back jukes right, plants his foot and cuts back left, leaving a tackler in his wake, scrambling for nothing but air. Str vs Dex/Reflex

- A pitcher throws an 84 mile per hour change-up with the exact same motion and armspeed in which he just threw a 94 mph fastball by a hitter. The hitter is foolishly out in front on the change-up, swinging and missing and screwing himself into the ground. Dex vs Wis/Perception

- A basketball player in the post performs an up-fake, causing the defender to leave his feet. He then pivots past the defender, stepping through and scoring an uncontested layup. Cha vs Wis/Sense motive

- A hockey forward behind the net, in the peripheral vision of the goalie, skates hard right, drawing the goalie to that post. He spins, stick-handling the puck to the opposite side of the net for a wraparound score. Dex vs Dex/Reflex maybe

Butbutbutbut that requires a lot of rolls and a high chance of failure! How about this?

Score Touchdown.....Football Player 1
You end up in the end zone. Eat it.
Daily. Sports, Martial, Ball
Standard Action Range: 100 yards
Target: One Endzone
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: 6 points, + make a secondary attack
Attack: Dex vs Reflex
Hit: 1 Point.

 

[TwoSix]

I might believe the stars align for a maneuver like CaGI or Sweeping Blow only happen once an encounter, but the stars aligning for Dizzying Blow only happen once per day, every day like clockwork?

One way I justify martial powers (when I feel they need to be justified, which isn't often) is to not assume that they function as discrete attempted actions. In character, the fighter isn't trying to do Sweeping Strikes. He's attacking. He notices that if aims at the legs of the closely packed enemies, he might be able to knock down several of them with a low powerful swing. So that's what he does.

Also, daily powers don't happen every day. That makes the assumption that you're getting into a fight every single day, after all. From the characters viewpoint, sometimes they make a particularly powerful blow when they're fighting. Was that a crit? Was it a daily power? Only the player knows.

 

[TwoSix]

Butbutbutbut that requires a lot of rolls and a high chance of failure! How about this?

Score Touchdown.....Football Player 1
You end up in the end zone. Eat it.
Daily. Sports, Martial, Ball
Standard Action Range: 100 yards
Target: One Endzone
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: 6 points, + make a secondary attack
Attack: Dex vs Reflex
Hit: 1 Point.

Actually, if I wanted to narrate what a football game actually looks like, I'd make it an encounter power, with each quarter being an encounter. The defense has the "Force Turnover" immediate interrupt power, though.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Fighter: "We're losing! Wizard, throw another fireball!"
Wizard: "I can't! I'm out of prepped magic! Why don't you do that awesome sweeping attack!"

Fighter: If you're so smart why don't you try either lining up the goblins for me or take the sword yourself. You can fight and I'll kibbitz.

Or:

Fighter: I'm trying. Unlike you spellcasters who can just do things, swordplay is a complex art that relies not only on what you are doing but paying attention to what the enemy is. Now shut up and stop distracting me by talking about things you don't understand.

I'm not asking for perfect duality. However, everyone here has answered my question well. CAGI would work on PCs. The PCs would be forced to explain why they rushed their friend (now enemy) and get hit rather than use a spell, shoot an arrow, throw a tanglefoot bag, or just stand there downfounded. Just like I must when the bloodied NPC wizard trying to escape instead turns and rushes the fighter because he used his metagame card.

We can meet in the middle.

You mean that CAGI is two powers (counting Warrior's Urging) out of over a hundred. There's no reason a fighter needs to take it? And if they don't, your entire line of argument goes up in a puff of smoke. Why do you assume all fighters need to have CAGI?

You know, I could ALMOST buy this for an encounter power. But a daily?

Wizard: Crap! More orcs! Fighter, line up that Serpent Dance Strike like you did against the ones in the last room!

Fighter: Sure. You dominate them so they line up exactly like the ones in that last room and I'll cut them down the same way.

I might believe the stars align for a maneuver like CaGI or Sweeping Blow only happen once an encounter, but the stars aligning for Dizzying Blow only happen once per day, every day like clockwork?

And here you appear to have not heard of athletes pacing themselves and keeping back something for the critical moments. You don't want your fighter to be anything resembling a human fighter, with the ability to pace themselves and read the ebb and flow of the battle. You appear to want fighters to be cold, unfeeling machines that always try to do the same thing the exact same way and who put no more effort in when fighting a dragon than when fighting a goblin. The Martial Daily is the fighter's ability to pull out the extra gear when the chips are down rather than be a machine.

Butbutbutbut that requires a lot of rolls and a high chance of failure! How about this?

Score Touchdown.....Football Player 1
You end up in the end zone. Eat it.
Daily. Sports, Martial, Ball
Standard Action Range: 100 yards
Target: One Endzone
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: 6 points, + make a secondary attack
Attack: Dex vs Reflex
Hit: 1 Point.

I'm not replying to that - I don't think it was offered in good faith. The only possible reply would be a pseudo-vancian "I win" spell to win the game and I don't think we want to go there.

 

[B.T.]

You mean that CAGI is two powers (counting Warrior's Urging) out of over a hundred. There's no reason a fighter needs to take it? And if they don't, your entire line of argument goes up in a puff of smoke. Why do you assume all fighters need to have CAGI?

Because it's the little things that break a camel's back.

 

[Remathilis]

You mean that CAGI is two powers (counting Warrior's Urging) out of over a hundred. There's no reason a fighter needs to take it? And if they don't, your entire line of argument goes up in a puff of smoke. Why do you assume all fighters need to have CAGI?

CaGI is a rich target because it encompasses everything I hate about 4e's power system with a neat little bow. To be fair, I had to read over my 4e PHB to find other examples. Why? Because many of them have no inherent "visual element" and thus easily fit into whatever narrative you want (For example, Brute Strike is pretty much an on-call critical hit. Most PHB attacks were adding a bonus to hit or damage for using certain weapons) My problem comes from those which really depict a specific maneuver or action that can't be repeated. (I've noted King's Castle, which is a bait-and-switch rogue power that I cannot for the life of me figure out why its daily except for balance purposes). I have some problems with Warlord powers that move and shift allies as well, but at least the PC has the right to refuse the free shifts if he really wants.

[

Fighter: Sure. You dominate them so they line up exactly like the ones in that last room and I'll cut them down the same way.

But tomorrow, a set of monsters will line up in that exact same line as they were in that room, and the fighter will use that same attack again. And the day after that. And the day after that. Unless the fighter doesn't use that power, once per day the foes will line up in that exact formation needed to use that technique.

And here you appear to have not heard of athletes pacing themselves and keeping back something for the critical moments. You don't want your fighter to be anything resembling a human fighter, with the ability to pace themselves and read the ebb and flow of the battle. You appear to want fighters to be cold, unfeeling machines that always try to do the same thing the exact same way and who put no more effort in when fighting a dragon than when fighting a goblin. The Martial Daily is the fighter's ability to pull out the extra gear when the chips are down rather than be a machine.

See my response above. My 3e fighter could (at sufficient level) move in out of combat (spring attack), attack all foes at once (whirlwind attack), sacrifice accuracy for damage (power attack), sacrifice accuracy for defense (combat expertise), bull rush, trip, sunder, or disarm a foe (with or without AoO preventing feat) and do whatever other special maneuvers he can learn via feats. And they can mix and match these options to show whatever attack is best. He might spam a certain attack against a certain foe (like tripping a hard to hit vampire), but he doesn't go through the "encounter, encounter, at-will spam, maybe daily" dance.

I'm not replying to that - I don't think it was offered in good faith. The only possible reply would be a pseudo-vancian "I win" spell to win the game and I don't think we want to go there.

3e wizards have the same problem as 4e fighters. Their spells are too specific. They function as all-or-nothing bombs that work because they're metaplot cards. I'd much rather see spells be a little more vague and allow for creative uses (but not automatic successes).

In opposition to Obryn, I'd rather see the Wizard's metaplot cards reduced rather than non-casters elevated with pseudo-magic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because it's the little things that break a camel's back.

When the great big things don't? Two powers out of over a hundred here and not ones any fighter is obliged to take.

And [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION], I think one of the major points you are missing is that what a fighter does in combat is much, much more complex and variable than what a wizard does in combat.

Let's take two situations and put a wizard and a fighter through each.

Situation 1: One Ogre with a club.
Situation 2: Three Goblins.

What the wizard does is almost exactly the same. To use one example, he points and a small pea like bead of energy darts out from his fingertip , lands where he wants it, and explodes. Fireball or scorching burst? You decide - but either way the only difference between the use of the spells in the two situtions is what the wizard points at.

Now we look at the orthodox sword and board fighter. Against the ogre, the fighter raises his shield to about head height to protect against the lines the ogre would be attacking with the club, and puts his sword at the level of the ogre's gut - it's easy, it's unarmoured, and it doesn't even have a rib cage. Our fighter then leads with the edge of the shield squarely at the ogre's face, putting the ogre on the back foot and denying any room for the ogre to swing a club because there's half a shield in the way. With the ogre occupied by the shield's edge (this, incidently, is orthodox viking style sword and board), the fighter's sword comes in low for the ogre's gut. Ogre takes damage and is reeling backwards.

Against the goblins, that would be instant suicide. Raising your shield to the level of your head and your sword over the level of the goblin's head? Slippery little bastards just run under your defences and hamstring you. Instead you drop into a crouch, shieldboss at the height of a goblin's head, and point of your sword level with their breastbones, flicking between them as you try circling to prevent them flanking you. They've spread out, so you pick a moment and rush at one of them. Your chosen goblin will dodge or parry if you go point first so you don't. You go shield first, using the flat of the shield as something large enough and powerful enough (with your armoured form behind it) that our goblin can't (we hope) get out of the way. You use bulk and muscle to drive the goblin back, out of any sort of formation and off balance - and then you use your superior reach to reach round the shield and stab downwards using the shield boss to guide your blade before turning, hoping you were fast enough to catch the goblin's mates on the hop.

Two completely different approaches for two completely different foes - neither of which would have worked at all on the other one. And the kicker? Both those attacks were Tide of Iron. What the fighter does is incredibly situational when you break it down to the nuts and bolts - and the powers represent approaches. If the fighter uses only six moves (and that's being generous to a 3.X fighter if you read it as a type of attack is a specific move) then any smart enemies would just learn to counter those six moves (it's not hard; there are only six of them and all cookie cutter). In actual fact any fighter worth having that maps to the real world will have dozens of moves and variations which do a wide range of things, and they will train many of them to be instinctual. But you can group them together (seriously, do you want your fighter to have first form nikkyo, second form nikkyo, third form nikkyo, etc. all as separate techniques?) - and the smart way to group them is into a range of effects.

The outcome for almost any fighter power is plausible (don't mention CAGI here please). The input is sensible. The fighter in question probably knows eight ways to get that effect, only some of which apply in any given situation. If you want to know how a fighter is doing what they do, pick up a historical fencing manual. Better yet pick up three from different cultures. A power structure allows fighters toi be flexible fighters who see and take opportunities that others would miss rather than repetative robots - and your wizard doesn't even know the right questions to ask. Also if a fighter's moves mostly take six seconds that fighter is dead. The power covers most of what the fighter does in six seconds - which a sane fighter certainly doesn't do in nice six second chunks.

It's about seeing opportunities as much as it is deciding in advance "I will do this." The fact that without some sort of power structure there is no real need to spot opportunities makes the fighter not like any real fighter. And the example wizard an ignorant kibbitzer who's so impressed by his own big flashy spells he doesn't understand what he's watching.

 

[B.T.]

Now we look at the orthodox sword and board fighter. Against the ogre, the fighter raises his shield to about head height to protect against the lines the ogre would be attacking with the club, and puts his sword at the level of the ogre's gut - it's easy, it's unarmoured, and it doesn't even have a rib cage. Our fighter then leads with the edge of the shield squarely at the ogre's face, putting the ogre on the back foot and denying any room for the ogre to swing a club because there's half a shield in the way. With the ogre occupied by the shield's edge (this, incidently, is orthodox viking style sword and board), the fighter's sword comes in low for the ogre's gut. Ogre takes damage and is reeling backwards.

Against the goblins, that would be instant suicide. Raising your shield to the level of your head and your sword over the level of the goblin's head? Slippery little bastards just run under your defences and hamstring you. Instead you drop into a crouch, shieldboss at the height of a goblin's head, and point of your sword level with their breastbones, flicking between them as you try circling to prevent them flanking you. They've spread out, so you pick a moment and rush at one of them. Your chosen goblin will dodge or parry if you go point first so you don't. You go shield first, using the flat of the shield as something large enough and powerful enough (with your armoured form behind it) that our goblin can't (we hope) get out of the way. You use bulk and muscle to drive the goblin back, out of any sort of formation and off balance - and then you use your superior reach to reach round the shield and stab downwards using the shield boss to guide your blade before turning, hoping you were fast enough to catch the goblin's mates on the hop.

If this is how you're going to describe Tide of Iron, then the text needs to make it clear that's what you're doing.