D&D 3E/3.5 Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)

[bret]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)

...and I've played a 3.5 rogue, and I still shred enemies just as easily. In fact, when I toss in the use of the spear (10-foot reach) things can get even better, especially with that sneak attack added in.

And I took down a 3.5 barbarian as well.

Sorry, but you need a longspear if you want reach. Unfortunately, that is not a simple weapon.

The rogue can now use the shortspear and spear, but not the longspear. Neither of the two spear types that the rogue gets are reach weapons.

Unless you are taking a level of fighter or the Martial Weapons proficiency, you don't get reach weapons as a rogue.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

About the only fix I'd give the 3.5 rogue is adding 'Hide in Plain Sight' to their special ability pick list.

 

[sithramir]

I just can't believe someone actually put evasion BEHIND another ability. I'd lose 4 levels worth of barbarian just for evasion. I mean, come on, 0 damage from ANY spell with reflex? Who cares if I have trap sense +10 movement rage. If i'm hit with a cone of cold a fireball or any similar thing my guy can take 0!

Last night we had a game and there were 3 flame strikes thrown from clerics. After my rogue/fighter was done "smiting" them because he took 0 damage he went to find a cleric who could "raise dead" the rest of the party. Did I mention one of those was a barbarian?

Evasion is an ability that just gets better and better as you get higher level'd.

And a level of monk means you can't take several other classes due to restrictions as noted above.

Rogues are insanely powerful as it is. You can make any character you'd like and my rogue will kill him. He doesn't need those abilities earlier on. Skill points are the best thing in the game unless you only do pure combat in which sucks to be you.

Did anyone forget that rogues can tumble as a class ability? The ability to not take AoO's from those 8 skill points is huge.

 

[bret]

*shrug* Then you haven't seen a competently played rogue.

[sarcasm]
Thank you so much for the insult.
[/sarcasm]

They do massive damage if you want to play them that way, with the downside of being weak against certain creatures.

I've played with a 10th level halfling rogue who wields a +1 holy bastard sword and a 14 str (18 after a good bullstrength). Even against foes he can't sneak attack, he does good damage.

And lord help you if you are evil and crittable: 1d10+6 (str)+1 (enhancement)+2d6 (holy)+5d6(sneak attack) = average of 37 points of damage with one hit.

Combine that with his+14/+9 attack bonus, Haste and the Opportunist ability, he usually manages to land 2-4 sneak attacks per round, for an average of about 100 points. (Naturally, this is far lower against constructs, plants, oozes, and to a lesser extent undead, but that's where my fighter get's to shine.)

10th level rogue: +7/+2
With size: +8/+3
With Strength: +10/+5

In 3.5 Bull's Strength only lasts for a few minutes, you *might* get it in the main battle but it isn't something you should count on.

In 3.5, Haste gives you one additional attack. That makes it +10/+10/+5 unless they are hitting you with both that and the Bull's Strength for +12/+12/+7.

Weapon is only a +1, so I get a total of +13/+13/+8 at max. Where are you getting the rest of your bonus?

In any case, a halfling would have to us a d8 Bastard sword since he is size small and you need exotic weapon proficiency to use it.

Now compare that with the fighter that is most likely going to have +10/+5 (level) +2-+3 (attribute) +4 (he will get Bull's Strength before you) +2-+3 (better weapon) plus Haste (in 3.5, it will get the whole group).

The fighter has got +18/+18/+13. His second attack is about equal to your first attack. The fighter is going to hit more often and often has several tricks that can improve his damage.

I've played the rogue, for me it has been Flurry of Misses and TWF just makes it worse.

Of course, a lot of being a high damage rogue depends on the rest of the party. We go out of our way to help him out: turning him invisible, hasting him, casting fly, flanking with him, blinding his opponents, grappling his opponents, healing him, etc.

Sounds like your rogue uses up a huge percentage of the spellcasting power in your group.

If you compare a spell-buffed rogue with a fighter having no spells on them, then I suppose it looks impressive.

In my experience, the rogue is often missing. Since most of my play is 3.0 and we only just got to the level where mass haste comes in, I'm not sure how much haste would affect this. I can work the numbers, but as you correctly pointed out that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[hong]

About the only fix I'd give the 3.5 rogue is adding 'Hide in Plain Sight' to their special ability pick list.

Ditto. The rogue's core schtick is "ninja", and it's right up their alley.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)

Sorry, but you need a longspear if you want reach. Unfortunately, that is not a simple weapon.

Perhaps you should check the equipment section in the 3.5 PHB. You will find that the longspear is indeed, a simple weapon in the revised rules.

 

[bret]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fixing the newly broken rogue class (thanks to Andy and 3.5)

Perhaps you should check the equipment section in the 3.5 PHB. You will find that the longspear is indeed, a simple weapon in the revised rules.

Oops, you are correct. Sorry about that. I didn't check the SRD closely enough and it wasn't listed in the change document.

Longspear changed from Martial to Simple between 3.0 and 3.5. Interesting...there are probably more than a few rogues and sorcerers that will be interested in that.

 

[Darklone]

10th level rogue: +7/+2
With size: +8/+3
With Strength: +10/+5

In 3.5 Bull's Strength only lasts for a few minutes, you *might* get it in the main battle but it isn't something you should count on.

In 3.5, Haste gives you one additional attack. That makes it +10/+10/+5 unless they are hitting you with both that and the Bull's Strength for +12/+12/+7.

Weapon is only a +1, so I get a total of +13/+13/+8 at max. Where are you getting the rest of your bonus?

In any case, a halfling would have to us a d8 Bastard sword since he is size small and you need exotic weapon proficiency to use it.

With Weapon Focus he reaches +14/+9.

3.0 Exo weapon proficiency was good enough, if they convert the bastard sword to a halfling greatsword now, he will have a spare feat to spend.

 

[Caliban]

[sarcasm]
Thank you so much for the insult.
[/sarcasm]

Your very welcome. I aim to please.

10th level rogue: +7/+2
With size: +8/+3
With Strength: +10/+5

In 3.5 Bull's Strength only lasts for a few minutes, you *might* get it in the main battle but it isn't something you should count on.

In 3.5, Haste gives you one additional attack. That makes it +10/+10/+5 unless they are hitting you with both that and the Bull's Strength for +12/+12/+7.

Weapon is only a +1, so I get a total of +13/+13/+8 at max. Where are you getting the rest of your bonus?

I don't know, he's not my PC. I think he may have had a fighter level in there somewhere, or weapon focus.

In any case, a halfling would have to us a d8 Bastard sword since he is size small and you need exotic weapon proficiency to use it.

Not in 3.0. And in 3.5 he would use a halfling greatsword instead and save himself a feat. (I'm pretty sure he has a fighter level, now that I think about it.)

Now compare that with the fighter that is most likely going to have +10/+5 (level) +2-+3 (attribute) +4 (he will get Bull's Strength before you) +2-+3 (better weapon) plus Haste (in 3.5, it will get the whole group).

The fighter has got +18/+18/+13. His second attack is about equal to your first attack. The fighter is going to hit more often and often has several tricks that can improve his damage.

I've played the rogue, for me it has been Flurry of Misses and TWF just makes it worse.

All I can say is I've seen him hit with 3 attacks and do heinous damage to giants, spellcasters, fiends, etc. Of course, he still hides behind me when it comes to constructs and golems.

Sounds like your rogue uses up a huge percentage of the spellcasting power in your group.

Not really. We don't do all those things at once, just as necessary. And with his UMD and scrolls, he can do quite a bit of that himself. (He will often give himself Fly or Blink off a scroll.)

Our party generally has three spellcasters anyway (Sorcerer, Cleric, and a Cleric/Sorcerer/Geomancer), and about 4 Pearls of Power 2nd level between us, so buffs aren't a big drain.

If you compare a spell-buffed rogue with a fighter having no spells on them, then I suppose it looks impressive.

My fighter get's just as many buffs as the rogue does, but he's not built to be a damage dealer the way the rogue is. He's an AC monster, who's AC starts at 28 and easily hits 45+. He does decent damage, but his main purpose is to keep the rest of the party alive long enough to kill whatever it is. And to kill golems and constructs.

In my experience, the rogue is often missing. Since most of my play is 3.0 and we only just got to the level where mass haste comes in, I'm not sure how much haste would affect this. I can work the numbers, but as you correctly pointed out that doesn't tell the whole story.

How often you miss depends a lot on what you are fighting and how much your spellcasters help you by debuffing/blinding things.

In our group we focus a lot on teamwork.

(Also how well the player tends to roll plays a big part. My dice suck, but the rogue player hits all the time.)

 

[Shard O'Glase]

at 10th level a rogue should only be missing 15% more often than the fighter. considering that the rogue will likely be doing more than 15% more damage per hit this balances out fairly nicely for damage, which it shouldn't IMO.

It really is nothing like the average 3.0 monks flurry of misses because the rogue only has to focus on dex(though I like a high int almost as much if not more) and therefore gets a really high + to hit from weapon finesse. Cripes if your going 1/2ling rogue the +1 to hit from size and the +1 to hit form +2 dex with finesse means they will only be missing 5% more often than a fighter at 10th level.