flanking and sneak attack.

[krupintupple]

this is a really simple question, but does anyone that is flanking someone, who can sneak attack, able to use this ability?

let's say, for example two goblin rogues rushed a pc's fighter, if they were both flanking, could they both fire* off a sneak attack, or could only the one that the pc is NOT fighting - and thusly not paying attention to - use his sneak attack?

thanks in advance.


*sorry, i didn't literally mean ranged fire, i just meant 'use the ability'

 

[irdeggman]

Anytime the "condition" is met a character can perform a sneak attack (if he has that ability).

There is no "facing" and thus the PC's fighter "threatens" both goblins at the same time - assuming they are in melee reach.

Now be sure that the goblins did not make more than a move action - or else they can not "fire" a ranged weapon in the same round.

Also you do not threaten with a ranged weapon - so unless the goblins have melee weapons they do not threaten and thus can't provide a flanking bonus (or flank) to the other.

See the rules compendium pg 56 for good illustrations on flanking (and PHB pg 153).

Definition section (pg 309 of PHB)

"Flank: To be directly on the other side of a character who is threatened by another character."

pg 314

"Threaten: To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space."

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

And, to add to what Irdeggman said, since a lot of people still don't realize (based on some recent threads), the goblins could also get sneak attack on a full attack, if the conditions for sneak attack remain fulfilled.
So, they get into a flank with the Fighter, he decides to stay put and full attack goblin A, to reduce his foes' numbers, but A turns out to be tougher than he thought. Goblins' turns, they're still flanking (or likely will be with a 5 ft step), and can in turn full attack the Fighter, each one adding SA damage. Just to go with your example.

 

[irdeggman]

Goblins' turns, they're still flanking (or likely will be with a 5 ft step), and can in turn full attack the Fighter, each one adding SA damage. Just to go with your example.

Just remember that if you have to take a 5 ft step to attack then you are not "threatening" until after your 5 ft step so your ally may not be able to benefit from the flanking condition until that point. It depends on the initiative order in that case.

Taking a 5 ft step prior to casting a spell is a common tactic to avoid the AoO for casting because when you are casting you are no longer "threatened".

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I meant, if the Fighter had 5 ft stepped out of flanking on his turn, generally, the first goblin can 5 ft step back into it for both of them. If not, then the next best thing would probably be to have A 5 ft step and ready an attack when his buddy sets up the flank, then B 5 ft steps to set it up, A gets one SA, and B gets to full attack SA.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I meant, if the Fighter had 5 ft stepped out of flanking on his turn, generally, the first goblin can 5 ft step back into it for both of them.

Not if the fighter player has a brain. Assuming clear terrain, it's always possible for a Medium creature to 5'-step out of a flank such that it takes more than a single 5'-step for his opponents to both re-flank.

Best case, one goblin only gets one attack. (Which may not matter, if they didn't have multiple attacks.)

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Not if the players are smart and the DM allows readying actions after taking a 5' step. If the DM allows a player to move and then ready an action, then each flanker simply needs to mimick the exact movement of the fighter. The first flanker in the initiative order moves and then readies an attack for when the second flanker moves. The second one moves into position and gets a full sneak attack. Then, the first one uses his readied action for a sneak attack.

By mimick's the fighter movement exactly, I mean the same direction as the fighter 5' stepped. If you think of a number pad, if the fighter is in position 5 and moves to position 9 then each rogue would also need to 5' step in a direction that would be moving from 5 to 9 on a number pad. Then they are both in flanking position again and can full attack. The only thing that can stop this is terrain.

 

[irdeggman]

Not if the players are smart and the DM allows readying actions after taking a 5' step. If the DM allows a player to move and then ready an action, then each flanker simply needs to mimick the exact movement of the fighter. The first flanker in the initiative order moves and then readies an attack for when the second flanker moves. The second one moves into position and gets a full sneak attack. Then, the first one uses his readied action for a sneak attack.

By mimick's the fighter movement exactly, I mean the same direction as the fighter 5' stepped. If you think of a number pad, if the fighter is in position 5 and moves to position 9 then each rogue would also need to 5' step in a direction that would be moving from 5 to 9 on a number pad. Then they are both in flanking position again and can full attack. The only thing that can stop this is terrain.

Rules-wise this tactic has "problems".
from the SRD:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

You can't ready a full-round action (i.e., a full-attack action).

The readied action also occurs "before" the action that triggered it - so the opponent is technically not "flanked" since the movement to cause the flank is what triggered the attack.

Now if you house-rule it then it would of course work fine. But technically per the rules there are "issues" with the tactic.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Ohyeah. I didn't say it was completely kosher. But there are some DMs who allow it - especially those who think the Rogue needs some offensive help.

Mind you, I'm not saying that ... I just know thereare some who do allow it.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

When the heck did I say they'd both get a full attack with readies? Fighter moves intelligently 5 ft. Goblin A either 5 ft steps and readies an attack, or just readies and takes the 5 ft step before the attack. Goblin B 5 ft steps, A's ready triggers, A gets one SA, B gets a full attack SA. It's not that complicated, really.