[Folks that like 4e] What are some things from previous editions that you miss?

[Mercurius]

This thread is for folks that like (and probably play) 4E but miss things from earlier editions. What do you miss? What was left behind? If you were to gather the best of all previous editions and add it to 4E (in order to get to the unmentionable "next edition") what would they be?

Without giving it too much thought, my list:

OD&D - DM Fiat as the default rule. Simplicity.
BECMI - Immortal play (I know, I know, we've got Epic levels but not immortal).
1ed - Gygaxian flavor/idiosyncrasies. Lots of useless but interesting information (e.g. the DMG, Best RPG Book Ever).
2ed - Plethora of settings. Class creation guidelines in DMG.
3ed - OGL!!! Density of words per page. Millions of hardcovers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This thread is for folks that like (and probably play) 4E but miss things from earlier editions. What do you miss? What was left behind? If you were to gather the best of all previous editions and add it to 4E (in order to get to the unmentionable "next edition") what would they be?

first I miss my mage...and yes I am also the first to speak out about needing it nerfed (becuse there came a point in every prev edtion where it was 80% of the group would play pure casters only) how ever deep down I miss that gandalf feel I don't get anymore at high level (Now adays I feel more like harry dresden)

I miss 3rd party support sometimes...other times I wish 4e had less...I guess it depends on my mood...

I miss magic item stacks...but I also don't miss never seeing above a +1 weapon... (I liked having +1 flaming keen longswords....I hated seing +1 flaming frost screaming shock keen longswords of speed...I guess it was too much sometimes)

I miss multi attacks...in2e weapon specilation (and later mastery high mastery and grand mastery) gave the fighter multi attacks, in 3e it was the high Bab...in 4e not so much.



I don't want any of what I miss put back in though...it was not the best, but sometimes I still miss it...

 

[Oni]

More unique mechanics to differentiate classes.

Now the at will/encounter/daily structure works well, makes for good balance, and I don't think the classes play the same or feel indistinct, but I still miss classes operating in completely different fashions mechanically.

Other than that nothing is really springing to mind at the moment.

 

[Mouseferatu]

More unique mechanics to differentiate classes.

Now the at will/encounter/daily structure works well, makes for good balance, and I don't think the classes play the same or feel indistinct, but I still miss classes operating in completely different fashions mechanically.

I occasionally feel this way myself. I'm very happy with the current structure, but now and again I do miss the classes offering widely different experiences.

I'd like a little more in the way of non-combat magic (and, in 4E, powers for other classes). I like the ritual system, but I'd like to see a little more in the way of non-combat utility powers.

On a related note, I miss some longer-term magical effects. I understand why things like long-term charms and the like were gotten rid of; but I still occasionally miss 'em.

 

[dontmazemebro]

Well, I don't miss much. Wizards has done a stellar job with 4E.

The only thing I really miss is Planescape. For all its flaws, Planescape just did it for me. The thought of a 4E update for that setting with the improved 4E cosomology and ruleset makes me salivate. (Long live the Athar!)

 

[Glyfair]

I agree with the OGL. I miss having a wide choice of 3rd party products compatible with the current version of D&D. I wouldn't have to actually be the OGL, but it would have to be attractive to 3rd parties.

I miss having 3 adventures of diverse focus in Dungeon ,agazine a month (pre-Adventure Path). In fact, I miss the d20 mini-games on a regular basis.

 

[I'm A Banana]

OGL and the note about "different mechanical experiences" (let's call 'em "subsystems"?) are two things I'll gladly get behind.

Another one would be "automation." I'm a kind of lazy, spontaneous, improv-heavy DM and 3e's interlocked ruleset allowed a decision I made to easily cascade into various other parts of the rules in an essentially intuitive fashion. As a for instance, if I said dwarves were now "small-sized" there was a package of things that went along with being "small-sized" that made the change very real, from a higher AC to a lower carrying capacity. Just by saying "dwarves are now Small" I could say a lot about how dwarves played without having to specify 200 different individual rules (one about carrying capacity, one about weapon wielding, one about AC, one about attack rolls, etc.). It was all rolled into one rule: The Small Size.

Now, I totally get why 4e got rid of these cascading rules effects, and I'm pretty supportive of that goal. Tracking fiddly bits through the whole system can be very painful. But I do miss that "being able to say a lot with a little" aspect of 3e, where I could make one change, and have that change accurately reflected throughout the rules.

4e's "exception-based" design means that there are no neat little packages. Everything is off on it's own. Which makes customizing easier, but makes a lot more gaps that I need to fill in. If I say a character is a "dwarf," he might be a specific monster, but he might also be a specific kind of NPC, or companion character, or even PC, and in each situation, he'll have different rules for what he can do. Small size means something slightly different for a monster than it does for a party member.

I miss having the game do that work for me, and giving me consistent answers.

I think this is my major "disconnect" with the claim that 4e is a DM's haven. For me, doing more work to try and keep some sort of internal consistency between my game elements is a huge mental load is a much bigger task than I was asked to do in 3e, and it's busywork that I don't really want to do.

So I miss that, even though there's a lot of aspects of 4e that I do like.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Well, I don't miss much. Wizards has done a stellar job with 4E.

The only thing I really miss is Planescape. For all its flaws, Planescape just did it for me. The thought of a 4E update for that setting with the improved 4E cosomology and ruleset makes me salivate. (Long live the Athar!)

Dang dude, you took the words right out of my mouth (or keyboard in this case). I have been tracking down the old 2E PLanescape books for about 6 months now and have been simply floored at the quality level of the writing and imgainative drive behind it. The only thing I really, really need to get a hold of is the main boxed set of the setting - I seem to be able to find the supplements much easier than that bad boy!

Actually I would also like to see a resurgence of the various (and varied) settings that TSR put out in the 90's, Spelljammer, Al-Quiam, Birthright, Mystara. One of the reasons the Dark Sun announce has me super excited is that is bodes really well for even more settings in the future!

 

[Thasmodious]

I miss and don't miss the wildly different class rules of older editions (thieves use % skill rolls, wha?). I miss the flavor and even some of the system mastery (not the 3e variety, headaches, but old school), but I don't miss the way things played out at the table because of those different systems or the way a lot of players tended to specialize in a class (including myself).

In much the same way, I miss some of that modularity that the older editions had. The same way they would treat classes, they treated everything else. You could chuck encumbrance without it rippling throughout the whole game, or change the way you damaged objects because it was entirely different anyway. I like the tighter, modern systems, but that loose amalgam of separate systems had its benefits too.

Other than that, there isn't much. Much of what I always loved about D&D is still in D&D.

 

[Barastrondo]

Having done a lot of 2e during the formative and highly enjoyable "college years," the one thing that I miss the most is a monetary system that is completely decoupled from a magic item economy. No spending gold to purchase magic items, to create magic items — I could even live with not having most rituals cost gold (but rather running off rare components that were generally achieved through adventure or found in dungeon hoards).

The shift from 2e to 3e saw characters who previously blew lots of gold just on expensive outfits, buying houses in town and lavish stays at expensive establishments having to tithe out a portion of their gold to the party mage in order to pad the "scroll fund." 4e's somewhat better, but I would still like to see the big expensive treasures be strongholds, sailing ships, ornate carriages and other such status symbols rather than having gold be a power-up resource to increase your available magic. Players should never feel conflicted about buying something like that, and removing the "need" to purchase magic with hard-won loot would help out a lot.

Plus it would cut back on the outlandish inflation between tiers. If seven chests full to bursting with gold are "not with the trouble" of carting off because they're not as valuable and portable as a pouch of astral diamonds, it just feels wrong to me.