For the first time ever, I've banned a player class from my table

[Tzarevitch]

Metamagic Item
Target: Spell trigger magic item touched
Duration: 1 round/level

You temporarily apply a metamagic feat you know to a single spell contained within a spell trigger item. For the duration of this infusion, ayone who casts a spell from the item gains the benefit of that metamgic feat. For example, you could imbue a wand of fireballs with the Empower Spell feat or apply the Maximize Spell feat to the cone of cold spell in a staff of frost.

Thanks.

The infusion is rather powerful but I still argue that the problem comes from the feat not the class. The artificer's ability to metamagic items is intended to allow them to try to keep pace with arcane spellcasters by burning through magic items. The problem comes when the feat allows you to use two wands at the same time.

Tzarevitch

 

[Shard Avenguard]

I'd like to introduce the OP to a few simple spells that thwart this type of character.

Mirror Image, and Blur. (learn to love them).

Displacement as well, Not to mention Blink. Go forbid you should come across Improved Invis. And we haven't even touched the elemental resistance spells.

Remember if they use it, YOU can use it too, see how they deal with some of their own medicine.

And lastly, putting a mage in their place is as simple as "make a fort save".

 

[kigmatzomat]

The infusion is rather powerful but I still argue that the problem comes from the feat not the class. The artificer's ability to metamagic items is intended to allow them to try to keep pace with arcane spellcasters by burning through magic items. The problem comes when the feat allows you to use two wands at the same time.

I don't even think the feat is a problem. I haven't verified all the calcs above but if the wands are 33k each that turns into 33000/50=660gp/charge. 15 charges = 9,900gp. So in one fight she burned nearly 10,000gp worth of magic items. Sure, she used two smaller items instead of one big one, so what? This amounts to firing off "Circle of Death" twice out of a Necromancer Staff with probably similar results.

The one thing to do with an item heavy caster is track their charges used. She's used 15/100 charges so she can do this five more times before she's burned out 66,000gp. Since she should only have about 22,000gp of other gear she should otherwise be a weakling.

Face it, she's got the magical ability to turn cash to damage. Exactly how long is she going to be able to fill that gold-guzzler's tank? Watch her power level drop when she's restricted to dual-weilding wands of non-metamagicked magic missle b/c the party doesn't want to fund her arsenal.

 

[Romnipotent]

you're 12th level... whats 52d6? really, I mean theres a reason why the system seems unbalanced, we call it meta-game mastering... have scouts recon the party, find out the weaknesses (roll all secretly for hide vs spot) then ambush, run and hide
repeat
murderate

 

[Dragonblade]

Math doesn't sound like its adding up.

Anyway, I generally allow characters to use powerful combinations when they find them. Because I always tell them that I play my villains realistically. An enemy mage who observes them in combat is only a few Spellcraft rolls away from being able to figure out exactly how the PC was so deadly with their wand. Then they are free to use the tactic right back on the PCs. And they will.

I have actually had my group not use powerful tricks like that for fear it would be used on them. Also, easy come easy go. I'm generous with the magic, but also am not afraid of throwing around the occasional Mord's Disjunction if the PC's abuse the leeway I give them.

 

[Klaus]

Thinking about it for a second, I'm not sure Twin Spell even applies to scorching ray. From the feat description in Complete Arcane: "Casting a twinned spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously."

Scorching ray has neither an area nor a target entry, so I'm not sure they work together.

I guess you're right, Staffan!

 

[MerricB]

May I point out that a CL10 Empowered Fireball that hits 4 opponents deals somewhere between (the equivalent of) 30d6 and 60d6 damage?

With regard to a rules point:

Metamagic Item: The cost is merely casting the spell (and having the feat to apply in the first place). There are no additional XP, charge or gp costs. (This is different to using the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability. At no point is that ability referenced in the spell description.)

Cheers!

 

[Impeesa]

I do believe mistakes were made in this case, but an artificer certainly can pump himself up to 52d6 damage by the Rules As Written. What went wrong in this case is that he wasn't exhuasting expensive wands, expending large amounts of gp and XP (even with the Eberron feats to reduce that expenditure) and taking significant amounts of downtime to prepare.

The artificer is, in effect, the ultimate focused, 'prepared caster' - if so built, he can do one or a very few things exceedingly well, but requires far more than the usual 8 hours downtime to 'recharge his batteries.'

Bingo. The Scorching Ray-blasting Artificer can get a lot scarier than what you see here, without breaking any rules. The Artificer can also be similarly scary at buffing, using skills, and so on. He will also expend significant time and material resources to do so. The Artificer is strong not because it has more than any other character, it's strong because it can (when used properly) unload it all fast.

4. The player.

In my opinion, the problem is partly #3, but mostly #4. We have here the classic twink/munchkin player.

Eh? Let's say you're a DM. It's probably trivial to say that you hope your players at least manage to flip through the available books and find some cool options for their characters. Are you implying that as they do this, they should be thinking "Wow, that's the coolest thing I've seen yet - combined with that feat over there, that'd be awesome! I'd better not use it or anything!"

--Impeesa--

 

[Aelryinth]

Correct. Blastificer builds actually build upon Blaster Mage builds who use Rods of Quickening, Empowerment, and feats like Sudden Maximize, etc.

BUT...they need time to prepare, and they can only do this so many times a day.

An Empowered Wand of Scorching Ray is a nice base. She's being nice by only using Twin Spell. If she added Quicken to the Mix, she could shoot that bolt off twice a round...Twinned! And then you get really silly and add in things like Repeat Spell and Energy Admixture to get 3 and 4 times the base dmg going.

12d6 +50%, +36d6, twice a round, anyone?

Also note, if you apply a strict interpretation of metamagic feats, she is NOT Twinning an empowered Scorching Ray...she's Twinning a Scorching Ray, that INDEPENDENTLY is Empowered.

Thus, that Spell dmg is 12d6, +12d6, +50% of 12d6....total dmg is 30d6, with six touch attacks and six SR checks.

For those of you who think that's balanced, well...

For the exact same cost, she can get a Wand of Energy Orb (any Element, or Force, 4th level spell, Complete Arcane) for the exact same cost. Dmg is 1d6 or 1d8 per caster level, ranged touch...and it ignores SR entirely.

THAT is the standard Blastificer weapon...SR isn't a consideration, since wands have low caster levels.

There is also the Dual Wand Wielder feat in Complete Arcane (needs TWF, but can use a wand in off hand for 2 charges instead of one) or you can take the Cannith Wand Adept class to dual wield wands (although the +CWA class level to wand caster level and DC is worth it right there).


Lastly, an Artificer only gets so many infusions a day, it takes time to prepare all of these, and they will only last for one encounter. The wands also have to get made ahead of time.

I think the Build That did the most was a Fire Energy Orb wand, sticking a ruby on the end of it, with +5 levels for a caster level of 16. Then you Quicken, Empower, Twin, Repeat, and Admixture it. Total buff time...10 rounds, 10 infusions level 3 or higher.

16d8, +16d8, +16d8, +16d8 (Acid), +50% of 16d8. Twice a round. 144d8 dmg. If you dual wield and have the infusions (it would take pretty much all of them level 3+), you are cranking out 288d8 of dmg per round at the cost of 6 charges on two wands. By going down to a 288d6, you can make most of that dmg force dmg, the other half something like Acid, usually.

224d6 of force dmg is ~784 points or so. Line up the dragons...if you have time to prepare. Of course, you must be about 20th level for all the feats to do this, but still, it IS impressive what a munchkin can pull off.

Not bad for 6 charges, or 3k of gold, aye?

==Aelryinth

 

[Storminator]

It seems to me that the Metamagic Spell Trigger infusion is the real problem. It's not only very powerful, it steps on the class ability. You not only get the infusion earlier, it's much, much better than the class ability. If you simply removed that one infusion, I think the whole issue goes away.

PS